MaxRV

Clear Coat Problems

64 posts in this topic

MaxRV,

If you're painting plastic lures, there's no need to prime them.

Give them a quick dip in clean acetone, without getting on the bill, and Createx will stick fine.

Awesome. Thank you!

Max

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As for the fumes, I am only doing 2 a 5 baits at a time, and I use a brush instead do the airbrush, so the fumes are minimal, and do not bother anyone in the house.

Good luck,

Max

I wouldn't suggest using ANY auto clear inside the house. No matter how minimal you may think the fumes are. Believe me. I tried it. ONCE!!! And you DEFINITELY shouldn't be applying them without the proper respiratory protection. Even when brushing them on. The solvents in auto clears are a known carcinogen among other things. You may think your getting away with it when you don't use proper safety gear until one day you, or a family member, ends up with brain or lung cancer. It's not like taking a bullet where you know instantly you've been hurt. It builds up inside you over time until it is too late to do anything about it. If you want to take that kind of risk then go ahead. But you should at least advise your family members and see if they want to take that risk with you. And don't come back ten years later and say you weren't warned.

Ben

Edited by RayburnGuy

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I wouldn't suggest using ANY auto clear inside the house. No matter how minimal you may think the fumes are. Believe me. I tried it. ONCE!!! And you DEFINITELY srhouldn't be applying them without the proper respiratory protection. Even when brushing them on. The solvents in auto clears are a known carcinogen among other things. You may think your getting away with it when you don't use proper safety gear until one day you, or a family member, ends up with brain or lung cancer. It's not like taking a bullet where you know instantly you've been hurt. It builds up inside you over time until it is too late to do anything about it. If you want to take that kind of risk then go ahead. But you should at least advise your family members and see if they want to take that risk with you. And don't come back ten years later and say you weren't warned.

Ben

Good Advice. Im going to have to relocate the clear coating process to the garage. Thanks Ben!

Edited by MaxRV

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Thanks, Ben! I usually use through-wires/swivels, but I'll keep that in mind for the few I do with a fixed hanger.

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I think your probably real close Ben.

I use Badger 150 air guns and shoot my clear with the large tip. Now.... you know me - and I have to tell a story to give an answer.

As many years as i have been painting and i'm ashamed to say i have no idea what the diameter of any of my tips are lol but I can tell you that the large tip on a 150 uses a 5mm needle and the 150 needle control is like a throttle --- and I rarley ever throttle it wide open so I am guessing that i'm averaging 3mm as well.

When I do big baits -- I do use a touch up gun (HLPV) but find myself applying about the same thickness coat with the touch up gun because the trigger on it throttles the flow as well. Im really only using the touch up gun because the baits are big and I can cover more realestate than dabbing around with the Badger so....... my answer is yes.... but what i will add is I really think I get a better "build" of clear when I allow it to tack up between coats.

Sense I normally try to do 30 to 40 baits at a time -- and I normally mix 2 ounces at a time--- I can run one coat on all the baits and hang them as I go. Then when its time to do the 2nd coat and 3rd the process doesnt change and they have all tacked up really good.

Not sure if this answers your question and if it doesnt we will try again !

Regards,

Blades

This is good info. I am frustrated with D2T and Etex, lure turners, chipping topcoats, added weight, etc.

About how long does the tack coat take to get right, on average.

What items does a person need to safely use 2 part urethane clearcoat?

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" This is good info . I am frustrated with D2T and Etex,lure turners,chipping topcoats.added weight,etc."

Let me see if I can answer this first part without starting a huge debate.

1st off... Epoxy Top Coats have there place theres no doubt. Each of us probably have a preference of when to use Epoxy and heres mine.... And this is just my opinion.

I use Epoxy topcoat on Heavy Deep Divers... Musky and Toothy Critter Lures ... Rattle Traps and when and only when i need to do a rush job for someone on the road and needing some baits for a tournamnet.

Now my situation is probably different than most becuase I dont build custom hardbaits to sell to the public. I do build them for myself and although I do coat them with epoxy before i base coat them for painting, I almost always spray Urethane Clear for a topcoat and have have accounted for that extra weight in the lure when I weight it during the build.

I have averaged custom painting 2000 baits a year at times and they range from anything to custom built and weighted crankbaits that will rise at a specific weight .. to very evenly balance japaneese baits .. to shad raps ... to Rattle Traps. So as far as ruling out epoxy ... I just cant do it.. it has its place in my arsenal and my descrimative use of it is has brought me much success.

"About how long does the tack coat take to get right, on average."

The particular Topcoat Urethane Clear / Reducer/ Hardner mixture i use takes about 5 minutes to tack up between coats but like I was saying to Rayburn (Ben)..

I have to" tell a story to" .." tell the other story"...... so the only way i can really thoughrouly answer this is tell you my process. In the process I am going to explain you should able to get an idea of the "items" needed but bare in mind that all these steps and items I list are what gives me what I feel are superior results. There are Member here that can vouch for what my topcoat finished are like with 2 part urethane, but Im not sure they post here anymore. I turned Skeeter on to this process a few years ago and Im not saying he has completly gotton away from Epoxy ( and let me tell you he was a die hard Epoxy user and damn good at it) --- but he does use the same Urethane Clear I use but im not sure how frequently. Lapala has a Smithwick Rogue I did that has been chewed on by a few Snakeheads and although one ripped a groove down the back of the bait and it did compromise the clearcoat all the way down to the raw lure body, the bait is still servicable and the finish and paint havnt peeled off.

I use PPG 2021 Ceramclear. It is a 2 Part 4 to 1 mixture

I normally mix 2 oz of clear to 1/2 oz (Med)Hardener to 1/2 oz Reducer ( this does about 25 to 30 normal size baits one coat)

I have a dehumidifier in my paint room that keeps my paint room about 37 % humidity give or take a few %

I spray in front of an Exhaust Fan and dont use a resperator but..... my Exhaust Fan is very high volume and I promise you , you never smell the fumes.

note: I want my Exhaust Fan to serve 2 purposes. 1 is to get rid of fumes and 2nd I want it to pull or suck the clear toward the bait. Anytime I spray anything on a bait... I do it in fron of my Exhaust Fan .I could go on and on about the advantages to a good high volume low speed fan but thats for another day.

I spray two coats on the baits by working thru all of them with one good coat and hanging them... then by the time I get to the last bait - the first bait is tacked up and ready for a second coat.

I mix a second batch of Clear and work thru the baits with a second coat. Same 2 part mixture -- same Hardener /Reducer

I leave the baits hanging over night ( 10 hours) with the humidifier on

Now... the next day the baits look fabulous ! but im not done.

I take the baits down and scuff them lightly with scotch brite --- then blow them off with high pressure air blower, in front of my Exhaust Fan so it sucks all the dust off and out of my room!

I mix another batch of Clear I mix the same 2 oz to 1/2 oz ratio Hardener and Reducer but I use the Slow Hardener instead of Medium.

I use the slow hardener because I want a slow cure for Maximum Adhesion and Gloss!

note: My Slow Hardener wont tack up for at least 45 minutes.

You can break this down and use the same process for 5 baits as easy as you can 30.

Im sure this all sounds anal and alot of trouble but once you have your paint area set up. its no hassle at all.

Also.. as I stated in an earlier post. You dont have to use the Urethane Clear that I use .. any good quality clear should have different Hardeners available as well as reducers.

Regards,

Blades

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" This is good info . I am frustrated with D2T and Etex,lure turners,chipping topcoats.added weight,etc."

Let me see if I can answer this first part without starting a huge debate.

1st off... Epoxy Top Coats have there place theres no doubt. Each of us probably have a preference of when to use Epoxy and heres mine.... And this is just my opinion.

I use Epoxy topcoat on Heavy Deep Divers... Musky and Toothy Critter Lures ... Rattle Traps and when and only when i need to do a rush job for someone on the road and needing some baits for a tournamnet.

What I will say as a blanket statement regarding the Top Coat Topic is were not married to the freaking lure ! Nothing last forever!

Now my situation is probably different than most becuase I dont build custom hardbaits to sell to the public. I do build them for myself and although I do coat them with epoxy before i base coat them for painting, I almost always spray Urethane Clear for a topcoat and have already accounted for that extra weight in the lure when I weight it during the build.

I have averaged custom painting 2000 baits a year at times and they range from anything to custom built and weighted crankbaits that will rise at a specific weight .. to very evenly balance japaneese baits .. shad raps ... Rattle Traps. So as far as ruling out epoxy ... I just cant do it.. it has its place in my arsenal and my descrimative use of it is has brought me much success.

"About how long does the tack coat take to get right, on average."

The particular Topcoat Urethane Clear / Reducer/ Hardner mixture i use takes about 5 minutes to tack up between coats (using medium Hrdener) but like I was saying to Rayburn (Ben)..

I have to" tell a story to" .." tell the other story"...... so the only way i can really thoughrouly answer this is tell you my process. In the process I am going to explain you should able to get an idea of the "items" needed but bare in mind that all these steps and items I list are what gives me what I feel are superior results. There are Members here that can vouch for the quality and durablity of my topcoat finished with 2 part urethane, but Im not sure they post here anymore. I turned Skeeter on to this process a few years ago and Im not saying he has completly gotton away from Epoxy ( and let me tell you he was a die hard Epoxy user and damn good at it) --- but he does use the same Urethane Clear I use but im not sure how frequently. Lapala has a Smithwick Rogue I did that has been chewed on by a few Snakeheads and although one ripped a groove down the back of the bait and it did compromise the clearcoat all the way down to the raw lure body, the bait is still servicable and the finish and paint havnt peeled off.

I use PPG 2021 Ceramclear. It is a 2 Part 4 to 1 mixture

I normally mix 2 oz of clear to 1/2 oz (Med)Hardener to 1/2 oz Reducer ( this does about 25 to 30 normal size baits one coat)

I have a dehumidifier in my paint room that keeps my paint room about 37 % humidity give or take a few %

I spray in front of an Exhaust Fan and dont use a resperator but..... my Exhaust Fan is very high volume and I promise you , you never smell the fumes.

note: I want my Exhaust Fan to serve 2 purposes. 1 is to get rid of fumes and 2nd I want it to pull or suck the clear toward the bait. Anytime I spray anything on a bait... I do it in fron of my Exhaust Fan .I could go on and on about the advantages to a good high volume low speed fan but thats for another day.

I spray two coats on the baits by working thru all of them with one good coat and hanging them... then by the time I get to the last bait - the first bait is tacked up and ready for a second coat.

I mix a second batch of Clear and work thru the baits with a second coat. Same 2 part mixture -- same Hardener /Reducer

I leave the baits hanging over night ( 10 hours) with the humidifier on

Now... the next day the baits look fabulous ! but im not done.

I take the baits down and scuff them lightly with scotch brite --- then blow them off with high pressure air blower, in front of my Exhaust Fan so it sucks all the dust off and out of my room!

I mix another batch of Clear I mix the same 2 oz to 1/2 oz ratio Hardener and Reducer but I use the Slow Hardener instead of Medium.

I use the slow hardener because I want a slow cure for Maximum Adhesion and Gloss!

note: My Slow Hardener wont tack up for at least 45 minutes.

You can break this down and use the same process for 5 baits as easy as you can 30.

Im sure this all sounds anal and alot of trouble but once you have your paint area set up. its no hassle at all.

Also.. as I stated in an earlier post. You dont have to use the Urethane Clear that I use .. any good quality clear should have different Hardeners available as well as reducers.

Regards,

Blades

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Thanks Blades, I'm a rook also and am leaning towards DN top coat and have talked to Dick himself as to how to extend the life of this product, but I'd think there would be more waste with dipping than spraying the clear on. I still like the idea of dipping because it sounds more hassle-free - any thoughts?

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Thanks for the well written guide as to how you do your topcoats Blades. Not ever having any experience with the urethane clears it's been a learn as you go type deal for me. You've just saved me a lot of time and materials.

thanks again,

Ben

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Thanks Blades, I'm a rook also and am leaning towards DN top coat and have talked to Dick himself as to how to extend the life of this product, but I'd think there would be more waste with dipping than spraying the clear on. I still like the idea of dipping because it sounds more hassle-free - any thoughts?

Bixie. Im sure Dick Nites is a great product but I have never used it. I think my buddy Dean McClean uses it. I have several baits from Dean that I deeply treasure and let me tell you the finish is Rock Hard and fabulous.

Im sorry but I cant give you much feedback on dipping whether its dick nites or any other brand. I have just never done it. About the only advantage I could give comparing dipping to spraying is that you could control the "build" of the clearcoat when spraying.

In regards to the process I mentioned above.. I was giving general steps ---- as I do modify the process depending on the baits.

For instance... I will never ever put 3 coats of Urethane on a Lucky Craft Staysee or Pointer or Slender Pointer. On these type baits I do one coat with med hardener then the second (which is the last coat) with slow hardener. If I put three coats I ruin the action.

On the other hand... Three coats has no affect on a Sebile Magic Swimmer or a Norman Deep Little N. It even helps a Smithwick Floating Rogue because in my aopinion these baits rise way to fast and the extra weight slows the ascend quite a bit.

As far as hassle free... without coming across as arrogant or a smart As?....... Quite frankly its all a hassle. I would have to say that dipping sounds like the least hassle of all but I dont believe any process is the "end all - be all"

Regards,

Blades

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Thanks for the well written guide as to how you do your topcoats Blades. Not ever having any experience with the urethane clears it's been a learn as you go type deal for me. You've just saved me a lot of time and materials.

thanks again,

Ben

Your welcome Ben...Sorry for all the mispelling and run on sentences .. I was in the Munic airport and it was 4 am... I was running on fumes.. I also have no idea why my reply was double posted.

Regards,

Blades

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Blades, again thanks - because this is greek to me, I'm just putting feelers out there to see what most are doing for top coat. I agree with spraying and being able to control the thickness of the clear better, just want to try and make the best decision on what to start out with. I know trial and error is a lot of it - but, want to at least start with a good option and try to improve on it. From what I'm reading now, I'm thinking on using your formula (thanks for post) and spraying it on ... versus dipping DN clear. If you reply and have seen both finishes, which clear is harder and clearer - your mix or DN?

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Bixie, I have baits dipped in DN and baits topcoated in 2 part auto urethane. Both are perfectly good "factory-like" clearcoats. As far as which is harder, I don't think there's enough difference to choose between the two in any practical sense. Maybe you can find literature on the web that lists a scientific hardness test for a particular brand of auto clear and specific brand of moisture cured urethane but I think you would be splitting hairs in this case. Not only are both "good enough", they're both "really good". The real differences revolve around practical application and storage techniques. As a bass bait hobby builder, I use DN because I work in the garage, like dipping and don't want to worry about auto clearcoat safety precautions. If I did baits for money, there's no question I would spray auto clear because it will give you a more consistently perfect topcoat. I would also choose an auto clear if I thought building a thick topcoat was necessary. Dn works fine when single-coated but you can have problems with multiple coats. You can learn to use any topcoat and get really good results.

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What Ben said; get rid of the rattle can paint. Dip your baits to cut the time in base coating rather than using a rattle can otherwise mixing the two will cause you nothing but problems. Even with an epoxy top coat I suspect once the hook rash gets deep enough the baits will peel like an orange.

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Srry I ment to quote this but hit reply before I added this....what do you dip your baits in? Just white paint or is there a certain type??

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Blades, thanks very much for the detailed response on using clear coats. I appreciate your willingness to share your experience. I will print this out and use it as a guide.

One more thing. What about jointed swimbaits? Do you disassemble them and hang each part to spray them?

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If I could offer some input on the auto clear topic....I do not have as much experience as most of you do with an airbrush, matter of fact I'm still very much learning my way around one. But what i do have experience with is automotive paints and clears, over 23 years behind the business end of a paint gun. Auto clears need to be handle with caution, do not breath the fumes you should always wear an approved respirator when spraying, weather you can smell the clear or not . Auto clears have a little known thing called isocyanate in them (from the activator) that can cause respiratory failure. So handle as you see fit.

I have sprayed many different brands of paints through the years , PPG, Sikkens, Dupont, R&M, Valspar, Sherwin Williams, just to name a few. Dupont is what I'm currently using,nothing wrong with any of the other brands I mentioned, just my paint of choice.

If you decide to use auto clear for your baits remember this

1. Your first coat is your bond coat. You DO NOT want it to be super smooth, but then again you DO NOT want it to be like spackling and all ruff looking either. You want to put a nice even coat over the whole surface your clearing.

2. You want to wait till the first coat (your bond coat) is finished tacking.....how do you know? Easy, find a spot you have sprayed your clear on, besides your bait, and touch it with your finger. If the clear is still stringy (kinda looks like a spider web when you touch it and pull your finger away) its not ready for the second coat. Urethane clears have what is called a Tail solvent in them, (this speeds up the flash time between coats) when the tail solvent is gone the clear will not be stingy (or look like a spider web) then and only then, you are ready for you second coat. Not letting the bond coat release all its tail solvents before applying another coat will trap them under the next layer and cause more problems. You DO NOT want to wait to long to apply your 2nd coat either, as this can cause adhesion problems and possibly lead to the clear delamanating.

3. depending on how many coats you are applying, (manufacturing recommends 2 coats) your last coat (gloss coat) is the one you want to spray to look smooth and free as possible of orange peel, with out running it.

4. if you decide that you want to put more coats on,(whats called a flow coat) I would suggest waiting until the clear has had time to dry ( at least 8 hours @ 72 degrees) Lightly scuff with a fine sand paper, and apply 2 more coats as stated above.

It will take automotive paint and clears 30 days to FULLY cure out. Paint STOPS curing at some where around 40-42 degrees (cant remember exactly)

I hope this makes sense to everyone, as I just tried to hit the key factors without boring everyone to death with all the technical blah blah blah. But if it dont I'll try and explain it better or try to answer any questions.

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Blades, thanks very much for the detailed response on using clear coats. I appreciate your willingness to share your experience. I will print this out and use it as a guide.

One more thing. What about jointed swimbaits? Do you disassemble them and hang each part to spray them?

Mike . No I dont disassemble them. I am Poland on business and can get you a picture this weekend but I will try and explain it now. And I might add it works really well.

I take a heavy duty coat hanger and spread it out like a diamond. I get small 1/4 inch diameter by 1 inch long springs ( the ones from a hardware store) and attached to the apex of the diamond shape coat hanger (one spring at the hanger end and one spring at the opposite apex)----- then I bend the last coil of each spring out to form a hook---- then hang (attach) the nose and tail of the bait to the springs.

Hold the hanger and paint or clear away !!!!!! Use the hanger to hang the bait between coats .

Regards,

Blades.

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If I could offer some input on the auto clear topic....I do not have as much experience as most of you do with an airbrush, matter of fact I'm still very much learning my way around one. But what i do have experience with is automotive paints and clears, over 23 years behind the business end of a paint gun. Auto clears need to be handle with caution, do not breath the fumes you should always wear an approved respirator when spraying, weather you can smell the clear or not . Auto clears have a little known thing called isocyanate in them (from the activator) that can cause respiratory failure. So handle as you see fit.

I have sprayed many different brands of paints through the years , PPG, Sikkens, Dupont, R&M, Valspar, Sherwin Williams, just to name a few. Dupont is what I'm currently using,nothing wrong with any of the other brands I mentioned, just my paint of choice.

If you decide to use auto clear for your baits remember this

Do exactly what Overspray said --- No Kidding !!!!!!!!!!!! Im taking my own risk.. doesnt mean you guys should.

Ive also huffed enough laquer over the years that i dont have many brain cells left ! It shows up in my spelling quite often. :drool:

Blades

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Do exactly what Overspray said --- No Kidding !!!!!!!!!!!! Im taking my own risk.. doesnt mean you guys should.

Ive also huffed enough laquer over the years that i dont have many brain cells left ! It shows up in my spelling quite often. :drool:

Blades

Are you saying your lungs probably look like the feathers on the NBC peacock? I can relate. I've breathed in enough welding fumes and chemical plant realeases mine probably look like two burnt paper sacks. Take note folks. It aint easy when you get older and start gasping for a breath of air at the least amount of exertion.

Ben

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Yeah guys, be extremely cautious about what you breath in!!! My father was a fire fighter and painted cars on his days off from the fire house, at 36 he was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease. No family history of the disease, no trauma to the head, but was exposed to plenty of fumes, and the Dr. said in all likelyhood that's what caused it. So breathing nasty fumes may not just effect you when you get older, it can get you while your still young. My father is still alive, but the toll the disease has took on him has made me very weary of what I breath in. TRUST ME FELLAS, THERE'S NOTHING WORSE THEN MENTAL ILLNESS!!

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It's not all limited to what you breath in either. Your body is like a sponge. If you are handling thinner without protective gloves, your skin is absorbing it in to you body, and your kidney are filtering it out. Your eyes are another way fumes and vapors can enter into your body.Not trying to scare anyone away from spraying any type of paints or catalyzed urethane's, just warning you of the potential hazards. If you want to spray urethane clears, by all means do it. I believe there is good potential and benefits using them instead of epoxy, just protect yourself and do it in a well ventilated area

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