63 replies to this topic

[idahobass96]

gunnie3035, on 30 January 2012 - 12:37 AM, said:

What Ben said; get rid of the rattle can paint. Dip your baits to cut the time in base coating rather than using a rattle can otherwise mixing the two will cause you nothing but problems. Even with an epoxy top coat I suspect once the hook rash gets deep enough the baits will peel like an orange.

[idahobass96]

Srry I ment to quote this but hit reply before I added this....what do you dip your baits in? Just white paint or is there a certain type??

[capt mike]

Blades, thanks very much for the detailed response on using clear coats. I appreciate your willingness to share your experience. I will print this out and use it as a guide.

One more thing. What about jointed swimbaits? Do you disassemble them and hang each part to spray them?

[overspray]

If I could offer some input on the auto clear topic....I do not have as much experience as most of you do with an airbrush, matter of fact I'm still very much learning my way around one. But what i do have experience with is automotive paints and clears, over 23 years behind the business end of a paint gun. Auto clears need to be handle with caution, do not breath the fumes you should always wear an approved respirator when spraying, weather you can smell the clear or not . Auto clears have a little known thing called isocyanate in them (from the activator) that can cause respiratory failure. So handle as you see fit.
I have sprayed many different brands of paints through the years , PPG, Sikkens, Dupont, R&M, Valspar, Sherwin Williams, just to name a few. Dupont is what I'm currently using,nothing wrong with any of the other brands I mentioned, just my paint of choice.
If you decide to use auto clear for your baits remember this

1. Your first coat is your bond coat. You DO NOT want it to be super smooth, but then again you DO NOT want it to be like spackling and all ruff looking either. You want to put a nice even coat over the whole surface your clearing.
2. You want to wait till the first coat (your bond coat) is finished tacking.....how do you know? Easy, find a spot you have sprayed your clear on, besides your bait, and touch it with your finger. If the clear is still stringy (kinda looks like a spider web when you touch it and pull your finger away) its not ready for the second coat. Urethane clears have what is called a Tail solvent in them, (this speeds up the flash time between coats) when the tail solvent is gone the clear will not be stingy (or look like a spider web) then and only then, you are ready for you second coat. Not letting the bond coat release all its tail solvents before applying another coat will trap them under the next layer and cause more problems. You DO NOT want to wait to long to apply your 2nd coat either, as this can cause adhesion problems and possibly lead to the clear delamanating.
3. depending on how many coats you are applying, (manufacturing recommends 2 coats) your last coat (gloss coat) is the one you want to spray to look smooth and free as possible of orange peel, with out running it.
4. if you decide that you want to put more coats on,(whats called a flow coat) I would suggest waiting until the clear has had time to dry ( at least 8 hours @ 72 degrees) Lightly scuff with a fine sand paper, and apply 2 more coats as stated above.
It will take automotive paint and clears 30 days to FULLY cure out. Paint STOPS curing at some where around 40-42 degrees (cant remember exactly)
I hope this makes sense to everyone, as I just tried to hit the key factors without boring everyone to death with all the technical blah blah blah. But if it dont I'll try and explain it better or try to answer any questions.

[bladesandbaits]

capt mike, on 06 February 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

Blades, thanks very much for the detailed response on using clear coats. I appreciate your willingness to share your experience. I will print this out and use it as a guide.

One more thing. What about jointed swimbaits? Do you disassemble them and hang each part to spray them?

Mike . No I dont disassemble them. I am Poland on business and can get you a picture this weekend but I will try and explain it now. And I might add it works really well.

I take a heavy duty coat hanger and spread it out like a diamond. I get small 1/4 inch diameter by 1 inch long springs ( the ones from a hardware store) and attached to the apex of the diamond shape coat hanger (one spring at the hanger end and one spring at the opposite apex)----- then I bend the last coil of each spring out to form a hook---- then hang (attach) the nose and tail of the bait to the springs.

Hold the hanger and paint or clear away !!!!!! Use the hanger to hang the bait between coats .
Regards,
Blades.

[bladesandbaits]

overspray, on 06 February 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

If I could offer some input on the auto clear topic....I do not have as much experience as most of you do with an airbrush, matter of fact I'm still very much learning my way around one. But what i do have experience with is automotive paints and clears, over 23 years behind the business end of a paint gun. Auto clears need to be handle with caution, do not breath the fumes you should always wear an approved respirator when spraying, weather you can smell the clear or not . Auto clears have a little known thing called isocyanate in them (from the activator) that can cause respiratory failure. So handle as you see fit.
I have sprayed many different brands of paints through the years , PPG, Sikkens, Dupont, R&M, Valspar, Sherwin Williams, just to name a few. Dupont is what I'm currently using,nothing wrong with any of the other brands I mentioned, just my paint of choice.
If you decide to use auto clear for your baits remember this

Do exactly what Overspray said --- No Kidding !!!!!!!!!!!! Im taking my own risk.. doesnt mean you guys should.
Ive also huffed enough laquer over the years that i dont have many brain cells left ! It shows up in my spelling quite often.
Blades

[RayburnGuy]

bladesandbaits, on 06 February 2012 - 05:58 PM, said:

Do exactly what Overspray said --- No Kidding !!!!!!!!!!!! Im taking my own risk.. doesnt mean you guys should.
Ive also huffed enough laquer over the years that i dont have many brain cells left ! It shows up in my spelling quite often.
Blades

Are you saying your lungs probably look like the feathers on the NBC peacock? I can relate. I've breathed in enough welding fumes and chemical plant realeases mine probably look like two burnt paper sacks. Take note folks. It aint easy when you get older and start gasping for a breath of air at the least amount of exertion.

Ben

[Gentle]

Yeah guys, be extremely cautious about what you breath in!!! My father was a fire fighter and painted cars on his days off from the fire house, at 36 he was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease. No family history of the disease, no trauma to the head, but was exposed to plenty of fumes, and the Dr. said in all likelyhood that's what caused it. So breathing nasty fumes may not just effect you when you get older, it can get you while your still young. My father is still alive, but the toll the disease has took on him has made me very weary of what I breath in. TRUST ME FELLAS, THERE'S NOTHING WORSE THEN MENTAL ILLNESS!!

[overspray]

It's not all limited to what you breath in either. Your body is like a sponge. If you are handling thinner without protective gloves, your skin is absorbing it in to you body, and your kidney are filtering it out. Your eyes are another way fumes and vapors can enter into your body.Not trying to scare anyone away from spraying any type of paints or catalyzed urethane's, just warning you of the potential hazards. If you want to spray urethane clears, by all means do it. I believe there is good potential and benefits using them instead of epoxy, just protect yourself and do it in a well ventilated area

[Musky Glenn]

Very well written Overspray! Musky Glenn

[overspray]

Musky Glenn, on 08 February 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Very well written Overspray! Musky Glenn

Thanks!

[atlasstone]

This is really good info. I have just started to use clear coats for my baits, but I am still getting the "orange peel" look so I'm still trying to figure out what I am doing wrong. I've used both HVLP and airbrush methods with the same result so I'm wondering if I am either putting it on too thick, or I am not prepping the bait properly. THe clear that I have calls for 2 "medium wet" coats, but I'm not sure how to determine if I am doing that.

Can anyone elaborate on the steps they take to prep the bait for clear or if the secret is in prepping the bait for paint?

Also, I'd like to try the "PPG 2021 Ceramiclear" but I cannot seem to find an online resource that sells it. Does anyone have a good resource for that?

How about any thoughts on fish eye reducers?

Thanks!

[mark poulson]

If you're spraying, try thinner coats to begin with, to give good adhesion, and then a smooth coat. I would make a test piece first, so I didn't ruin a bait I'd taken forever (for me) to paint.

[RayburnGuy]

atlasstone, on 09 March 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

This is really good info. I have just started to use clear coats for my baits, but I am still getting the "orange peel" look so I'm still trying to figure out what I am doing wrong. I've used both HVLP and airbrush methods with the same result so I'm wondering if I am either putting it on too thick, or I am not prepping the bait properly. THe clear that I have calls for 2 "medium wet" coats, but I'm not sure how to determine if I am doing that.

Can anyone elaborate on the steps they take to prep the bait for clear or if the secret is in prepping the bait for paint?

Also, I'd like to try the "PPG 2021 Ceramiclear" but I cannot seem to find an online resource that sells it. Does anyone have a good resource for that?

How about any thoughts on fish eye reducers?

Thanks!

I would suggest going back and reading the posts in this thread by bladesandbaits and overspray. Actually it wouldn't hurt to read the whole thread. There is a lot of good info contained in this topic.

Ben

Edited by RayburnGuy, 10 March 2012 - 03:20 PM.

[seeking 54]

What Ben said; get rid of the rattle can paint. Dip your baits to cut the time in base coating rather than using a rattle can otherwise mixing the two will cause you nothing but problems. Even with an epoxy top coat I suspect once the hook rash gets deep enough the baits will peel like an orange

@ Rayburn and gunnie 3035 Quote: " Even with an epoxy top coat I suspect once the hook rash gets deep enough the baits will peel like an orange"

I'm really curious about this statement ............

Are you saying epoxy as in etex for example, would not hold on rattlecan paint?

s54

[RayburnGuy]

It's not that the epoxy won't hold. I think what Gunnie was talking about is the incompatibility between some of the solvents in rattle cans and what is sprayed or brushed over, or under, them. Painting and top coating a lure is a step by step process and each step has to play nice with the other. Epoxy is more or less inert. Meaning it doesn't react with other substances. But if the top coat is breached (hook rash) and the underlying layers of paint aren't "playing nice" with each other then the whole paint job can peel off in chunks. That is from each coat of paint not bonding with the one under it. At least that's the way I understood Gunnie's statement.

For example I tried spraying my base coat with a rattle can paint one time. The paint was supposedly designed for painting plastic. There were no problems whatsoever with the paint job. Everything looked great until I went to clear coat with DN. As soon as the top coat was applied the whole paint job wrinkled. It was from the solvents in the rattle can paint reacting with the solvents in the DN. This is what I meant about everything having to "play nice" with each other. Very few of the products we use to paint baits were actually designed for that purpose and when we start mixing and matching different components we can sometimes end up with a disaster.

Ben

Edited by RayburnGuy, 10 March 2012 - 05:34 PM.

[seeking 54]

Thanks RayburnGuy for explaining your situation.

Then, one of two things happened:

1) The paint wasn't fully cured causing the solvents to react.
2) Perhaps DN is not compatible with that brand of rattle can paint or rattle can paint in general.

Mixing two different brands of rattle cans will not necessarily react together 100% of the time. I ran out of Rustoleum black one time. I sprayed Krylon black over Rustoleum white just to have the Krylon black run right off the white. Prior to that, I used Krylon copper over Rustoleum black while doing a scale pattern and had no problems whatsoever.

It's been my experience that if rattle can paint adheres and it's fully cured, it's not coming off. Even if there are battle scars or hook rash. I have beaten up lures to prove it. I wait 2 weeks for the paint to cure before applying etex. Might be overkill but i've never had wrinkling or any other problems for that matter.

The only way for paint to come off wooden lures and I can attest to this since i've repainted numerous , is if the primer did not bond with the sealer or the wrong wood was used( swelled up ). My last 2 repaints were someone else's baits.....beautifully crafted / painted baits but the builders dropped the ball on the most critical part of lure building, the sealing / priming.

I'm not an expert but I thought i'd share my experiences with rattlecans. When I stop having fun with them I'll join the rest of you over to the dark side. LoL!!

s54

[RayburnGuy]

By using strictly rattle cans you probably run into fewer problems than someone who is mixing rattle can paints with airbrush paint. And using an epoxy top coat you probably run into fewer problems than someone who is using some type of urethane. That's what I was getting at when I was talking about all the components "playing nice" with each other. Some folks, including myself, have tried spraying a base coat from a rattle can because they are cheap and readily available. Now when you go to mixing different things on top of that rattle can base coat several things can happen and some of them aren't good. I'm no chemist, but I would think that different companies use different solvents in their lines of rattle can paints. Maybe even in the same brand, but with different colors as you mentioned. And there are a lot of them that don't always react to each other in a friendly manner.

Your probably doing a wise thing by waiting as long as you do before top coating although by using an epoxy you could probably cut that wait time down by quite a bit. But if that fits into your schedule then by no means would I try to suggest doing it differently. A lot of us aren't as patient as you though and we have worked out systems using different products and procedures that fit into the way we like to do things. That's one thing about this hobby that makes it so interesting. There are lots of ways to skin the proverbial cat and as long as your satisfied with the outcome then there isn't a thing wrong with the way you do it.

Ben

[atlasstone]

RayburnGuy, on 10 March 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

I would suggest going back and reading the posts in this thread by bladesandbaits and overspray. Actually it wouldn't hurt to read the whole thread. There is a lot of good info contained in this topic. Ben

I re-read this thread and although the information is extremely helpful, I was unable to find reference to my particular questions. I'm not sure if I am asking them in the wrong way or if I simply overlooked the answers.

I was looking to see if I should be focusing my attention more on preparing the painted bait for clear coat, or if I should pay more attention to preparing the bait for paint. After taking one of my baits to the local NAPA auto paint center, the associate told me that it looks like I need to focus on preparing the bait by roughing the surface slightly then cleaning it with alcohol, wiping it down with a tack cloth (low tack) then again with alcohol. After which, he recommended not touching the bait and avoiding any dust or dirt when I painted it. His final suggestion was to clear it as soon after the paint was cured in order to avoid similar issues with dust etc prior to clearing. I went ahead and picked up an adhesion promoter as well. I have yet to test out his suggestions so we'll see how it goes.

I saw one of the posts that had a link to 5star, but I wasn't able to find any of the PPG products there. I'm not sure why I can't find an online resource to purchase the PPG products mentioned in blades post, but if anyone has a good resource for it, I would appreciate it.

My last comment on my post was around the clear coat additives that I have seen reference on some of the auto painting sites called "fish eye reducer". I have seen the products, but I was wondering if anyone here had any experience with them. The general consensus elsewhere seems to be split as to whether they should be used or not, so I didn't know if this is something I should look at for our application. I didn't see any posts that said they used this type of product, other than the reducers to thin the clear, so I figured I could pose the question in case someone had tried this.

I apologize for any oversights on my part, but I hope this helps to clarify what I was looking for. I did not intend to ask anything that had already been addressed.

Thanks!

Edited by atlasstone, 15 March 2012 - 04:50 PM.

[RayburnGuy]

I could have misunderstood what it was you were asking. As far as what you should be paying more attention to that's kind of hard to answer as both prepping for paint and prepping for clear coat are important steps. But there's no need to go overboard on either one. When prepping my baits all I try to do is make sure I have the surface as smooth as possible (sanding) and free from oil and other contaminants. The first thing I do when getting ready to paint a lure is wash my hands with Dawn dish washing liquid in water as hot as I can stand it. This removes any oil from my hands in case, for whatever reason, I end up touching the bait while painting. And I have ended up touching the bait many times with no adverse reaction. You will know immediately if you have contaminated the lure surface with body oil as it will fish eye as soon as the next layer of paint goes on. I don't use any special additives or conditioners for my paint or clear coat. I use reducers to thin the paint to the consistency I like and will sometimes add a transparent base to make certain colors more transparent and that is it. I don't find a need to add anything at all to the clear coat. No thinners or "fish eye reducers" or anything like that.

The clear I'm using is not much thicker than water so I can't imagine reducing it. I've never used the adhesion promoters Like Bulldog because I've never seen a need to do so. The paint will stick just fine to a well prepped bait. (lightly sanded and clean) At one time I tried wiping my baits with denatured alcohol before paint and didn't like it because it doesn't evaporate quickly and can hide in places such as around line ties and hook hangers.Then when paint is sprayed over it it makes a mess of the paint job. I switched to something Mark Poulson told me he does. After the sanding is finished I give the bait a quick dip in clean acetone. Notice the words "quick" and "clean". The dip is more of an "in and out" type thing as the acetone is hot enough to melt plastic if left in too long. The quick dip will not only clean the bait by removing any oils, but will melt the tiny ridges left from sanding just enough to give you a nice smooth surface to paint on.

I hope this answers some of your questions. If not just holler back and we'll try again.

Ben