Matador Customs

General View On Selling Ko's

42 posts in this topic

I just wanted to get an idea of how some of you guys felt about people selling home made lures that resemble lures that are in the market. I guess

This applies to myself. I started making various swimbaits a year ago and fishing them exclusively, and every time i meet someone they ask to see what i use and the response is very gratifiying, they ask if i sell them. This is where i hesitate because i know that what ive made is not of my own design but something i saw on the internet, though not 100% percent a true replica. I usually put my own twist on things and add more detail, different materials for tails and more realistic paint jobs. As all of you know this hobby is not exactly cheap and ive already bought a small wood shops list of power tools and recently a very nice airbrush, my intentions are not malicious and would only sell a few here and there just to bring in some coin to help me keep this hobby going. I guess i just want to hear what the general opinion is concerning my dilema.

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Definitely go for it. As long as the dimensions aren't copied you are okay. I can show you how to make a nice website for that cost only $10 a year. Or you can use ebay.

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Absolutely, go for it. We all need supplies and stuff to keep making baits. There is nothing wrong with making your craft pay for itself. Plus a little boat gas. :halo:

Skeeter

Edited by Skeeter
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All of my baits are inspired by another bait. I will and have made exact copies of old baits when a customer request it. That has expanded my customer base and I've made some good friends. I've been able to pay for all my tools, paint, wood, and other misc supplies. Plus it's put a little play money in my pocket for rods, reels, and tackle. Make sure your customer service is tops and back your work, you will be surprised how many people will come knocking on your door for baits. I still only build part time because I have to pay real life bills but the little extra from the lures doesn't hurt a bit. I do not consider my baits as knock offs but one of kind handmade originals.

Edited by benton B

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Go for it!! Nothing wrong with using another design and adding your personal touch to it. There really isnt much out there that is truely geniune, well unless you are the innovative developers of the Alabama Rig!! HaHa! Am I gonna be in trouble for using the name Alabama Rig??

On another Note Holy Crap Skeeter where have you been my friend?? Drop me a line will ya!!

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You would not have asked the question if deep down you didnt already know its wrong. Why copy another bait? If you have enough skills to copy a bait then you should also have enough skills to make your own. You can use the basic designs that are out there but change it. Make it yours. Make it so when somebody sees it, they dont think its a copy of somebody elses work. All the swimbait makers I know are small operation and we make our living off of it. we also have bills to pay. Making baits puts food on our table. Its not a hobby for us. Making a copy for proffit is steeling, and its lazy. You are most likley tallented enough to make your own. Making your own does not mean taking a current bait and carving a few details in it and putting a different paint scheme on it. You say its gratifying to you when somebody buys one of your copies? imagine how much better it will feel when somebody buys a bait that you designed. Guys say everythings a copy and there are no new ideas. That is an excuse to be lazy. There are new ideas every day. Some are subtle and others are very inovative. I am in the process of several patents. Its a shame that I have to spen a bunch of money just to keep guys from steeling my ideas and make money off of my hard work. Guys will say "look at all the crankbaits" as justification for steeling. Just because others do wrong doesnt make it ok. Plus I am sure the original guys who made cranks made their money. Its very disturbing when a product gets hot and the owner starts to make some of his money back and all the theives rush in to get their piece. They will come up with a bunch of reasons as to why its ok and justify it to mask their guilt but they all know deep down that what they are doing is wrong.

Imagine if you were the guy that came up with something that took off. What you dont see is all the time and money that went in to getting it there. Imagine you designed a good bait and created a market for it. How then would you feel about a bunch of guys saying its ok to copy it.

I am sure I will get dogpiled because I am the minority here but that doesnt make it ok.

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I agree Matt. What is worse than one person asking about the ethics of selling a direct copy, is the many who feel that it's OK. Copies are a big deal here. Just about every day someone is asking where to buy a KO of some premium Japanese bait. Look at the recent umbrella rig thread with thousands of hits so people could figure out how to attach some wires to a head. Innovation requires thought, imitation only requires a copy machine, which by the way is also a great tool for photofinish!

I know of one person who copies another artist so completely, that he makes the same shadowing and highlight mistakes. That's kind of funny, but really, really sad.

Douglas

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This is the kind of mixed response i was hoping for. It validates my own thoughts and feelings both the positive and negative. Positive being that if i did sell my lures i would have to step it up and create something better than what is out already, negative being that if i did in fact sell something i made i would feel bad taking credit for someone elses design . I know i said its feels gratifying when some one had asked if i sold the lures i make but i never said i actually did, i have never sold anything i have made. In fact i have several lures that are pretty original and those i would not hesitate in selling, i only hesitate when it comes to certain lures i tried to mimic but not exactly clone.

A year into this hobby and ive learned that some designs and shapes plainly work well, and ive seen many lure companies adapting these ideas in to their own lures. When it comes to wood swimbaits how far off the road does one need to veer off into to become truly original in todays market. I will probably sell my lures one day but when i do i will make sure its something ive put alot of time effort into to make it my own even if by then its not 100% original.

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my thought is that if you make a bait and want to make money from it you should not post it here or any place else puplic unless you have a pat. on it is fair game to any and all becouse others can and will copy it!! No matter how much time you spent making it or modifying it to make it work the way you want it it will be copyed sooner or later a pat, is the only protection for a lure and it only last so long before that runs out and you get ko's.

you stated that you do other stuff to the lures you make by changing things you dislike to things you like and thats why you use that lure you made it to your liking and if you made the bait from scrach thats great,if you buy a lure blank and paint it your way thats great too selling that bait is the same as any bait you make/paint its yours to do what you want to do with it...

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I agree Matt. What is worse than one person asking about the ethics of selling a direct copy, is the many who feel that it's OK. Copies are a big deal here. Just about every day someone is asking where to buy a KO of some premium Japanese bait. Look at the recent umbrella rig thread with thousands of hits so people could figure out how to attach some wires to a head. Innovation requires thought, imitation only requires a copy machine, which by the way is also a great tool for photofinish!

I know of one person who copies another artist so completely, that he makes the same shadowing and highlight mistakes. That's kind of funny, but really, really sad.

Douglas

Douglas I tried to copy your fins but I just can't DO IT!!! and you even tried to tell me on the phone how to do it.. Their I said it... I feel so much better now.. will you ever forgive me. I miss takin with you call me sometime.

I agree with Matt. Why do you want to copy anyone. Im going to be more direct and not as nice as him when I say...

. Listen up DIPSTICK! MAKE YOUR OWN DAM DESIGN.. most of the crap your going to copy is junk made in China anyway. And some of the so called HANDMADE STUFF that some of the boys in your home state are selling... IS MADE IN CHINA TOO...they just want you to think its HANDMADE!!!!! So be original and make your own stuff. Pick up some wood and just carve out a shape..it doesn't even have to look like a fish to be successful.. Sure all of us are inspired by someone else in whatever we do... BOB ROSS GIVES ME GOOSE BUMPS! so I make happy looking fishing lures rather than trees..and as I stated before I love the way ROWHUNTER makes his FINS!!! I still can't do it Douglas!.

Dont waste your money getting a patent Matt you will spend more money fighting to defend your patent than you will lose by not having one..just my opinion.

LO BLOW FRIEND or whatever your name is.. If you want to make some handmade baits that nobody will care that you copied.. Start out making a Flatsided Wooden bait.. with painted on eyes and no detail. That way you will only copy all the other guys that copied the original guy that made a flatside crankbait with painted on eyes...whoever that guy was... see its so non original I can't remember his name. BE ORIGINAL DIPSTICK.. in the end you will sell more more and make more money to support your hobby... Now if you would like to copy one of my designs...(WOOHOOO...HONEY I JUST SOLD ANOTHER 100 DOLLAR LURE)....knock yourself out! you never going to be able to paint fins on it like Douglas can anyway...that takes TALENT!

THE ROOKIE

Edited by The_Rookie
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In the past, I made and sold my own baits.

It started as a hobby, but quickly had the same headaches as any business, because I made them myself, and stood behind them completely. Anything goes wrong, bring it back and I'll take care of it.

That took the fun out of building, so I stopped selling.

I have bought cheap knockoffs to paint for myself. Most of them I have to tweak to get them to fish right, but I don't mind.

But I would never sell them, because I didn't make them myself.

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I can take the bad criticism as well as i do the good but name calling, are we still in grade school. Rookie, ive always enjoyed reading what you post and the ideas you share as sarcastic they might be but if you want to insult someone there are better words in the dictionary to do so with. Dipstick just sounds childish. Anyway, thanks for giving me a bit of your wisdom, im sure one day i will sell something but rest assured it wont be anything like your 100 dollar lure.

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Right now I'm wondering what in the heck anyone could do to make a swimbait so original that someone wouldn't carp about it being a copy of one of the hundreds of swimbaits already on the market. At some point, you have to consider the frame of reference by which you judge whether a bait is a copy of someone else's work. The first guy to ever make a wood crankbait with a lip probably got all bent out of shape when the second guy to make a lipped crankbait sold his first product. "How dare he use balsa wood? How dare he steal my idea of putting a piece of plastic on the front that makes my bait swim like a real fish?" "By God, I'm gonna SUE that thieving s.o.b.!"

And so it goes...

Edited by BobP

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Right now I'm wondering what in the heck anyone could do to make a swimbait so original that someone wouldn't carp about it being a copy of one of the hundreds of swimbaits already on the market. At some point, you have to consider the frame of reference by which you judge whether a bait is a copy of someone else's work. The first guy to ever make a wood crankbait with a lip probably got all bent out of shape when the second guy to make a lipped crankbait sold his first product. "How dare he use balsa wood? How dare he steal my idea of putting a piece of plastic on the front that makes my bait swim like a real fish?" "By God, I'm gonna SUE that thieving s.o.b.!"

And so it goes...

I think you hit the nail square on the head there bob,and think of how many bait are cast from that very first bait?????

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I can take the bad criticism as well as i do the good but name calling, are we still in grade school. Rookie, ive always enjoyed reading what you post and the ideas you share as sarcastic they might be but if you want to insult someone there are better words in the dictionary to do so with. Dipstick just sounds childish. Anyway, thanks for giving me a bit of your wisdom, im sure one day i will sell something but rest assured it wont be anything like your 100 dollar lure.

I couldn't agree more. What a tool. Almost everything sold is inspired by something else. How many things are just improvements on some other design? If you can make a few bucks selling them, go for it. I truely enjoy this site but its full of "lure snobs" who are jealous of people who can make some money off thier lures who haven't "paid thier dues". When I first joined this site I asked for some help with color patterns for certain lures. I had limited funds at the time and was hoping to take some of the learning curve off. I got jumped on by the "superbuilders" for not "putting my time in". Luckily a very cool member pm'd me and helped me out quite a bit. Sell those bad boys. They are custom painted Ko's. Nothing wrong with that.

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Just because you cant think of anything new doesnt mean there arent any new ideas. I have 1 single bait in the works with 4 pattentable ideas on it. Very original. I will get my pattents and my attourny will defend them with little cost to me. Saying that everything is a copy and there are no ideas is an excuse to be lazy. An excuse to copy sombody elses work. Yes there are a lot or grey areas when it comes to copies. Nobody with average intellegence will pick up one of my baits and mistake it for sombody elses unless they copied me.

Saying its Ok to copy a bait because it is not pattented is like saying its ok to steal your car because you left it parked out on the street and not locked up in your garage. Just becuase you can get away with it doesnt make it ok.

Lure snobs, not me. I encouage all you guys to take a shot at making a living doing this. Just make your own baits. Its not hard. I dont sell worms but If I was going to I would carve out my own masters and make my own molds and I would try not to copy anybosy elses. Obviously it would be much harder to make an original worm though. The Rokies baits are a great example of how to do it. In design they similar to other baits and use the same princaples as other baits, hoever they look like nothing else out there. They are his and nobody would accuse him of being a knock off. Instead of you guys making money off of other guys baits why not have some pride. Use the brains that God gave you and the skills you have learned here and creat something. I say this not to brag but to make a point. I litteraly have at least 12 new bait designes in line that will keep me busy for a couple years and I will have plenty more after those. Its not that I am better then anybody else. Its that I choose to think and design my own, and teach myself and learn for the hundred of failed experiments. Thats how you lean, thats how you get new ideas.

Rookie I have to get my pattents on this bait. I belive its that good and many of my piers would want to copy it.

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Just because you cant think of anything new doesnt mean there arent any new ideas. I have 1 single bait in the works with 4 pattentable ideas on it. Very original. I will get my pattents and my attourny will defend them with little cost to me. Saying that everything is a copy and there are no ideas is an excuse to be lazy. An excuse to copy sombody elses work. Yes there are a lot or grey areas when it comes to copies. Nobody with average intellegence will pick up one of my baits and mistake it for sombody elses unless they copied me.

Saying its Ok to copy a bait because it is not pattented is like saying its ok to steal your car because you left it parked out on the street and not locked up in your garage. Just becuase you can get away with it doesnt make it ok.

Lure snobs, not me. I encouage all you guys to take a shot at making a living doing this. Just make your own baits. Its not hard. I dont sell worms but If I was going to I would carve out my own masters and make my own molds and I would try not to copy anybosy elses. Obviously it would be much harder to make an original worm though. The Rokies baits are a great example of how to do it. In design they similar to other baits and use the same princaples as other baits, hoever they look like nothing else out there. They are his and nobody would accuse him of being a knock off. Instead of you guys making money off of other guys baits why not have some pride. Use the brains that God gave you and the skills you have learned here and creat something. I say this not to brag but to make a point. I litteraly have at least 12 new bait designes in line that will keep me busy for a couple years and I will have plenty more after those. Its not that I am better then anybody else. Its that I choose to think and design my own, and teach myself and learn for the hundred of failed experiments. Thats how you lean, thats how you get new ideas.

Rookie I have to get my pattents on this bait. I belive its that good and many of my piers would want to copy it.

I'll give ya "$100" for it.

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Not for sale. The only reason that I am getting the patents is so I can build my baits with out having to worry about anybody steeling from me. I have no desire to sell or even make royalties. I just want to keep the thieves away.

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Well I gotta say, "Never a dull moment!" Not being a builder, only a painter it may not be my place to speak here. Ethically speaking, to copy another design and call it your own is wrong. Realistically speaking, its done daily on thousands of items, but that does not make it right. As Matt and many others on here can attest, Lure innovations, design and testing can take weeks or even months of trial and error to deliver a working model. Once you comprehend the basic fundamentals of the lure you want, you should be able to design, build and produce your own lure. Even improve upon the original design of the one that gave you the idea. That's what most inventions or ideas stem from, Seeing something in action and developing an idea to improve upon the original or designing something new due to necessity of the moment. If you can copy and build a lure from scratch, you can probably design and build something better than what you copied in the first place.

All that said, and I didn't even have to go down to the schoolyard mentality level to say it, but as I stated in the beginning..."Never a dull moment!"

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I haven't made hardbaits since the early 90's. I design and produce my own softbaits. I have recently made the rigs; but my own design.

All that being said I'm not knocking anyone here; but what about the "big" guys stealing from us. If you notice I very rarely post pics anymore simply for that reason.

It realy ticks me off when I see ideas from here showing up out there in "bigshot land". I've had some of my ideas show up out there and there is nothing I can do about it. There average guy can't afford the patent process and they know it so it's open season on most of us.

I had one of my bait designs show up in China and part of another bait(the part that makes it work) show up in North America. There is no more honesty in business any more. In my day a man's word meant everything; now it means rat s**t.

So; I guess what I'm saying is that if you want to do KO's go for it because the big guys don't worry about you until you step on their toes.

If you want to design your own baits that's great as well; but if you come up with a great idea don't be surprised that if some day you see it under some other name.

www.novalures.com

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Gentlemen, This is a touchy subject. I wont give my own opinion because I am the holder of a few patents. (Unrelated to this field) I will however add that the provisional patent process is very inexpensive and can be done for about $150. It is a good way to get a product line started. This way you can put it out there and try to drum up business. If it turns out to be a failure you are only out a buck-fifty. If it works out for you, you can invest further in to a full patent. (Or sell it to a big box company as I would).

Regards

Sonny

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There isn't a builder, no matter how 'original', who does not stand on the shoulders of builders who came before him. So I think it's fair for the community to give any claim of originality a hard, critical look. That doesn't mean it's ethical to screw a guy who comes up with a novel lure design and is trying to derive a little income and/or recognition. If the originator is building and selling baits, it's wrong to knock off his design and sell copies. Whether he has legal recourse has zero to do with ethics. The legal side is purely about money and economic harm. It depends on the steps he has taken to protect the design, how deep his pockets are, and his willingness to expend (most times, you can substitute the word "waste" here) his energy to prove a legal point. If history is any guide, patent and copyright protection in the area of fishing lures is mostly a joke in any practical sense. Just ask the originators of the Chatterbait or the Alabama Rig. The only way those guys made money is to partner with a big lure company to churn out large volumes of a popular lure before their competitors can follow suit.

It is not unethical or illegal to make a copy of anything as long as its done for your own use and will not be marketed.

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just for the record i painted a brookie and posted it so people could see the paint job I DID becouse i had'nt seen another brook trout paint job in the gallery brown trout,ranbow trout yes but no brook trout,after i posted i started seeing a few more look alikes so what?. i dont care if people copy it,sell it, put it on a petestal or what i just do with it becouse painting lures is fun ,I'm not looking to become rich or not

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Some of you on this site know who I am and what I do. For those of you who do not, let me introduce myself. My name is Jeff Klein from Lexington N.C. I am a guy with a dremel tool and a piece of sandpaper that makes "Flatsided Wooden" baits with painted on eyes and no detail.

The way that I see it is Lobina saw a lure that caught his eye on the internet and tried to produce something like it for his own use. Then Some folks saw it and wanted some too. So what !! That describes most of the folks on this site. I started by trying to copy something that I thought was neat. I have chopped up custom baits, handmade baits, store bought baits, and baits that are no longer made to see how they were constructed and what made them tick.That is how I learned. Lobina stated that his baits were not a 100% true replica. If the guy wants to make and sell a few to get some of his money back so what. This guy is no threat to anyone.

Lobina also stated that this was a hobby for him. However, Matt wanted to take this conversation to another level to include businesses that make baits for a profit. So Let's really get down to it. The bottom line for a business is not bassed on ethics. It is based on how much profit can be made. If you are going to play the ethics game in business you will get your head handed to you, Matt knows this. It is why he is seeking his patents. Size of the business does not matter either. Staying ahead of the competition does. Sad to say, but most people that run a business for profit are not as ethical as Douglas. If they can take a great idea that you have and make a profit out of it they will do it. I have had it done to me to. That doesn't make it right, but that's the way it is.

Skeeter

Edited by Skeeter
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