davewood

Thru Wire Constuction

39 posts in this topic

Then why don't you come up with a way to test the strength of different types of connections in multiple species of wood then pizza? It seems like you've tried to shoot down everything that's been suggested here so figure out a way to do your own "real world fishing failure" test. Good luck testing all the variables in that equation.

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Apparently i misunderstood your first post.

I have not tried to shoot down a single thing, nor do i think i have. Just trying to clarify things based on my background.

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I only fish for bass and stripers, and make lures for those fish out of PVC, so I can only speak from that perspective.

Personally, I think the fishing line will break before my screw eyes ever pull out of my PVC, even the very light trim board. And if I get short bit at the boat, I never button down my drag, except when I'm flipping, so the fish can pull as much line as he wants before I thumb him and turn him.

To me, a big part of the fun of fishing is the fight. A buttoned down drag with 50lb braid and a flipping stick is a rush when you get bit, but it's over in an instant.

If I wanted to put my connections to some kind of a shock test, to simulate multiple jarring hits from big fish (I should be so lucky), I think an easy way to test if stuff holds in wood is to screw and/or glue several different connectors into the wood or material I used to build lures, and clamp it into a bench mounted vise. Then tie some strong leader cable to the connector, with enough line left to tie off to a baseball bat, and take some swings.

By varying the swing speed, you can see how much shock your connection can take before it loosens up or fails.

I guess you could also do the same thing by clamping the test material in a vise, and then dropping test weights that are attached with cable to the connectors so the weight hits the end of the cable before it hits the ground. That would probably be more repeatable and scientific, and yield results you could chart and duplicate.

Whatever method you chose, you'll find out pretty quickly what works for your particular lure material and hardware choice.

My personal method has always been when I've tried to remove hardware with a pair of pliers, and had the hardware break before it pulls out of the lure material. What I fish for doesn't have pliers, so I'm pretty confident the lures will hold up.

Having said all that, with today's glues and hardware, I think most of what we all build is pretty strong.

I'm not speaking about salt water fish, or those from down under. But guys here build stuff that holds up to pike and muskies, and that has to be pretty stout, so I'd listen to what they say about through wiring vs. screw or glue in hardware if you're building for those fish.

I've found that there is a danger of paralysis by analysis, where folks get so caught up in developing the "perfect process" that they never get around to actually doing anything. I've seen this in wood working forums, where the debate of which sharpening stone and system is the best can come to online blows, and I'm sure it could happen on lure making forums, too.

It is more fun to build, and to fish, than to debate.

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I test my construction by going fishing. If it fails then it just wasn't meant to be. Just the way I do it.

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"Build it, fish it, and see if it breaks" is the way I do it too. Every builder has to decide how much is "enough". Like a lot of guys, I try to err on the strong side. But you need to consider what fish are likely to hit your lure and the price you have to pay in 'build difficulty' and most importantly, performance, when deciding that. The bait is part of a system that includes the trebles, the knot, the line, the rod, the reel, and the fisherman. Any part of it can fail. A couple of factoids stick in my mind when thinking about this. You can break 50 lb braid on a snappy hookset with a flipping stick due to the instantaneous strain. Most pro fishermen go with 65 lb braid or better when fishing heavy grass for that reason. On the other hand, rods are tapered to 'give' and prevent such failures. Rod builders do static tests on the break strength of guide wraps find that at only 10-12 lbs of dead lift, standard single-wrapped and epoxied rod guides will pull off a rod. I'm not sure how these factoids blend into the system but they're worth considering. I've destroyed baits but have never had a bass do it for me. If one ever does, my hat will be off to him (or more likely, her)!

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Pizza. You are right if testing .....lets say a leaf spring ..... but we are not only testing the metal wire. We are testing the glue joint also. When testing glue joints, the industry uses load over time. ...and yes it is static. (I read up on major marine epoxy co. and how they test). Also, wood does not plastically deform in the same manor as more homogeneous materials like metal and plastic do.

Regards

Sonny

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OOPS.....I meant to say glue doesnt plasically deform like metal....not wood. LOL

.....and can anyone tell me why I cant edit a post......

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"Leaving the weight on for a while also is good because that checks for fatigue over time."

I was just pointing out improper use of the term "fatigue". If you do a test like rayburn guy mentions until failure, you will find the ultimate tensile strength of the composite (lure). Sorry for getting technical on terminology, my background is in materials science and mechanical testing is what I used to do.

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That is what an adhesive co. called the testing they do. The theory is that the strand structure will stretch over a period of time if under constant load so the test is sort of dynamic and not exactly static. However, that does not mean the same thing as repeated cycling. With your background you probably are subject to all the same free trade magazines I am. It was in NASA tech Briefs.

I usually use the yield instead of the ultimate when calculating. I am a wuss in that way.....

After talking about this I am getting inspired to try similar testing in a salt water bath.......

Sonny

Edited by Sonny.Barile

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"I have caught several fish with the first unpainted proto, including a 5Lb toothy bawal and the bait handled itself flawlessly. Incidentally, my first fish on my own lures, can you believe it!"

Dave the barrel twist through loop sounds like a solid solution. I looked up the bawal. Flat sided fish can really put up a fight. A five pounder would have been great fun. Congratulations! I would say your endanger of liking to fish if this keeps up. Are you using a white base coat proto or a nudie? Might try some simple patterns as well. Like red and white; a classic fishing color pattern.

Vic

Thanks Vic, yes, I am having great fun, just a pity they won't let me use in the competitions. I have now caught with several of the proto's, some nude the rest white. I have no plans other than to paint plain white, it works well, so why change, plus I am a believer in action over paint, just my opinion.

Glad you like the wiring idea. It is not new by any means, the lure turners use the same principle, I just miniaturized it. I haven't done a pull test yet, but will do when the design is finalized. Will probably post a vid too.

Dave

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Forget about creep. Forget about yielding. They are irrelevant to fishing lures for a number of reasons.

In a nutshell, the ultimate tensile strength (which is what the test mentioned will give you if you do it to failure) will depend on lure design, shape, materials(especially their ultimate tensile strength), and how well the materials are joined/bonded together since it is a composite.

Depending on the lure, one of those will be he weakest link and cause failure. I dont see shape as being the weakest link, but it could in an "extreme design".

Sonny, it has been over 10 years since i got out of engineering. I tried to find that article but there were a lot. I used to work at the rockwell science center -world class r&d facility full of super cool equipment.

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Are you retired or doing something els? I am designer for a medical device co. but have worked in defense and the valve industry. The lab we have is loaded with Instron machines, urethane foam blocks (similar to bone) and frozen Bovine (cow) femurs. LOL Nothing I would consider world class.

One issue I had in the past was over building surf plugs with very rigid thru wire. I was using .093 17-4 stainless rods purchased preheat treated to H900. I had a hard time tuning them and would often scuff the finish with pliers. I have had better success with some 300 series locking wire (annealed) but I need to keep the loops smaller or they end up yielding (deformed). The Blues here in NJ are often in the 3 foot class with teeth.....

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