Dick Nite Crinkle Finish?
19 replies to this topic
Posted 21 July 2012 - 10:40 AM
I know... I KNOW! Not another DN thread... I looked in the search function and didnt see a specific answer to this so i'm appealing once agin to y'all. I dipped coat 1 and it went great. Looked good, but too thin. I waited the reccommended 5 hours, dipped again and coat 1 immediatetly started wrinkling underneath!! What gives? In alk honesty, its actually a kinda cool effect and after letting coat 2 dry overnight i dipped again this morning to see what would happen. I had to leave the house for work right after so i have no idea what coat 3 is diing right now. When i get home I'll report back, but what went wrong? Did i not wait long enough between dips?
Posted 21 July 2012 - 10:51 AM
This is a pretty common problem with multiple coats of any MCU. You can minimize but probably not eliminate it by waiting at least 24 hrs between dips. After using DN for a couple of years, I saw that a single dip performs perfectly well on bass baits and makes the problem go away. There is probably an ideal recoat time for DN but I've not read or experienced what it is. I think "multiple dip syndrome" is something you get if you are used to thicker epoxy topcoats on crankbaits. But MCU is designed to be tough in a thin coating, just like a factory finish. In fact, it IS a factory finish!
Posted 21 July 2012 - 05:09 PM
Coat 3 made things no better or worse... I gotta say though, i kinda like the effect and will fish the lure to see if the bass agree! I'll post a picture later on tonight. I will say though, that from now on i'll stick to one dip...
Posted 21 July 2012 - 06:41 PM
I have dipped my lures multiple times in DN and had the same problem with wrinkling. What works for me when I use multiple coats is to wait 2 or 3 days then lightly scuff the lure and re-dip. I haven't had a problem doing it this way yet.
Posted 21 July 2012 - 08:44 PM
Here's the lure.... For entertainment purposes only!!!
Edited by bluetickhound, 21 July 2012 - 08:49 PM.
Posted 23 July 2012 - 09:13 AM
I had this same issue until I figured out the cause.
I dip with DN, letting the plugs sit in a oven (100deg overnight) and dipping a second coat. This same crackling was happening to me but I noticed it was worse on the darker colored plugs. What was causing this is the darker colored plugs were absorbing more heat (I use two 100W bulbs for a heat source) from the lights. When I dipped the second coat, the DN would start to set with the heat that was emmitted from the plug body while it was flowing down the body - causing the crackling.
I now let the plugs sit in the heated oven for 5-6 hours then turn off the heat for at least 3 hours before the second coat to allow the entire plug to return to room temp. I build wood plugs and have repainted plastics and since I follow this procedure I haven't had it happen again!
Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:14 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't DN a moisture cure finish? I'm not sure that baking your lures makes it dry any faster. I just dip and hang my lures in a box to keep any dirt or contaminants off the lures while the topcoat is curing.
Posted 23 July 2012 - 11:12 AM
DN is most definitely a moisture cure urethane. (mcu) No idea what effects, good or bad, heating them in an oven would have. This site is full of folks though, myself included, that experiment with different ways of doing things. Sometimes the tinkering pays off and sometimes it blows up in our faces. Literally!! It might not hurt to read the MSDS sheet on DN before exposing the vapors to any type of heat source. You could possibly be building a bomb. Even though your using light bulbs for a heat source they have been known to break thus exposing a white hot element to the vapors. If the vapors put off by DN are flammable this could be a disaster waiting to happen.
Posted 23 July 2012 - 11:31 AM
That's more than $.02 Ben... Thats great advice. Thres a reason Dick only ships it UPS ground and even then it has to have the ORM-D labels on it. S-81 is great stuff, used properly but like a loy if things... You're only one bad decision away from a trip to yhe ER, or worse... We're on vacay this week so i'll be away from the workbench... My lure is hanging up and I'll be interested to see what a week undistirbed will do for the finish. I know the wrinkle/crinkle is there for good but i'd like to see if a weeks worth of curing will imorove the gloss like i've seen folks say...
Posted 23 July 2012 - 12:00 PM
I got the idea of using an oven to bake it from Dick Figgins (Dick Nite) himself.
Posted 23 July 2012 - 01:35 PM
You're dealing with two processes. First the solvents in DN evaporate to form the film. Then the chemistry causes the film to interact with moisture to harden. The quicker the solvent is out-gassed, the faster you can re-coat, if that's what you feel is needed. Safety is safety but unless I hear about Pogue going "BANG", I doubt there's enough solvent on a couple of lures after a few minutes to cause an explosion in 100 degree heat. I guess my objections are more nuanced. How much more protection do you think multiple coats of DN provide and when you say 'protect' do you mean against hook rash or against water penetration? No topcoat is proof against hook rash but I've never had a single-coated lure cut so deeply that water penetrated beyond the finish. So practically, I just don't see the need for multiple coats on bass baits. Once I decided that, life became a lot simpler! Dip it, hang it, DONE.
Posted 23 July 2012 - 02:52 PM
While I couldn't find the MSDS for DN S81 I did look at quite a few MCU's online and every one of them was listed as flammable with flashpoints as low as 109 degrees. As far as there being enough solvent on a couple lures to create an explosion hazard I can't say. I also didn't see where he said how many lures he was baking at a time. I have however worked around hazardous chemicals and explosive gases throughout my career and I can say one thing about that. It doesn't always take a lot of a volatile vapor, especially in a confined space, to cause an explosion. Or at the very least a fire. The only reason I've posted this is I felt there was a need to bring to light what I thought was a safety concern. I am not a chemist and could be completely wrong. Just felt like the warning needed to be made.
Posted 23 July 2012 - 03:25 PM
Doesn't sound right to me putting any chemical in an oven I going to consume baked food out of.
Too, you've got chemicals in a hot enclosed space in a larger enclosed space where vapors are collecting.
I remember doing some work in the Monsanto plant one summer. The same place they made Agent Orange.
One unit out there makes laundry detergent. Or the same stuff as laundry detergent.
The story goes everyone who works in that unit is told not to take this stuff home because even if it is laundry detergent, there or other chemicals that need to be added before it is safe. They started that warning after one dummy did take some home and showed up with a bag of rags, zippers and few buttons the next day.
Heat and chemicals are never good. Especially in an enclosed area. Even if they don't explode, or catch fire, they can affect your brain, and your breathing.
No clue about how much is too much, but I've seen videos of accidents people have had lighting f*rts.
That's all I need to know.
Edited by garyo1954, 23 July 2012 - 03:26 PM.
Posted 23 July 2012 - 04:56 PM
I tried to get an MSDS for DN awhile back. Nada. I'm also warning any newbees to DN--this stuff is not to be taken lightly, as far as any safety concerns. Please, please, buy a good respirator! And if you really like your facial hair, consider some other topcoat, since the respirator must fit properly.
Dont mean to go off topic, but if it keeps a new user from gettin sick, it cant be said too often. This stuff will hurt you good.
Its also a killer one app' topcoat!
Posted 23 July 2012 - 05:17 PM
I really like the way it goes on... The crinkle is my fault for (once again...) not leaving well enough alone... I look forward to a long and happy relationship with the S-81 (and will wear a respirator to help insure it)!!
Posted 23 July 2012 - 11:12 PM
This is what I like about this site, you guys are a wealth of great information. I have been using DN for a little over a year. Most of the lures I paint are for walleye fishing and I just dip once for those lures but have recently painted some musky lures and wanted to beef up the topcoat so I went with two dips. I really like the easy of use with DN and once you get some bloxygen or similiar the storage issue isn't that big of a deal. Thanks again guys for the info.
Posted 26 July 2012 - 12:51 AM
I came here to let you all know about the new order page I just built that will make ordering about a million times faster, then I ran into this thread!
Before I talk about the order page, I want to address some of the things being discussed here on this thread.
First, I DO NOT PUT MY PAINTED LURES IN A FOOD OVEN. Neither do I put them in an explosive atmosphere. NEITHER SHOULD YOU!
My oven is simply a plywood "box" that has about a dozen shelves in each side. It is force-fed hot air from a ceramic heater in a completely separate area. At no time can flammable fumes find their way to the heat source. An explosion proof heat source is necessary.
Use of a respirator is required also. No solvent is good for you (even alcohol can do severe damage!), so don't take chances.
The reason I use 100 degree heat, as was mentioned, is simply to get the solvents to evaporate more quickly. It doesn't seem to actually decrease the drying time after the solvents are gone.
Second, as for the crinkle effect, I wish I knew how to do that on metal lures. I have tried and failed miserably.
This makes me think that possibly it is the fact that it is on wood... Maybe the brass I use is cooler? This is really interesting, and as you all know, I'm not a scientist so I would have to do a lot of testing on different materials and at different temperatures to come up with any sort of an answer.
The fact that scuffing or sanding the original coat seemed to help in one case above makes me wonder if the first coat was actually completely cured. As you know, the cure time for this strain of top-coat is "Up to 30 days" to be completely outgassed and cured. We don't notice any difference after the first couple of days, but the solvent in the second coat and subsequent lifting / shifting caused by it curing on top of the skin of the first coat may have something to do with it.
Third, as far as the MSDS sheets for the Top-Coat and our other Paints, Lure-Coat in general, I have them on our server and you can download them (they are PDF format, so you should be able to read them). They are large - each one is about 7MB.
Lure-Coat (other than Top-Coat) is viewable here: http://www.dicknite....- Lure Coat.pdf
Top-Coat is viewable here: http://www.dicknite.... - Top Coat.pdf
Hope this helps!
Now I am off to post a message about the new order page that takes your order, applies shipping (flat rate), accepts payment, and sends the order directly to my shop - no more of this email, wait, paypal invoice, wait, payment, wait, shipment, wait stuff - your orders should ship the next day from now on!
Thanks for being a great bunch of folks!
Posted 26 July 2012 - 01:24 AM
Thanks Dick. I'm glad you explained in detail about how your curing box is set up so that no type of direct heat source is actually in the same box as the lures. Dave (aka Vodkaman) posted a thread a while back about how to build a box to cure lures using an indirect heat source. He still used light bulbs for his heat source, but it was in a separate enclosure and the heated air was moved by using a small fan.
Posted 26 July 2012 - 09:39 AM
Thanks for setting up an order page for us! I believe you are right about the cure not being allowed to complete for me viz a viz my crinkling "problem"... I painted my lure with Polytranspar, let it dry 24 hours, dipped once and it was beautiful. I then, however, decided if one dip is good, two would be even better so i waited 5 hours (as i had seen suggested here by several folks) and presto!! The finish immediately started crinkling up! As i have said before... I really kind if like it and may play around with purposefully doing this over a different type of paint scheme. I dont know if the water based Polytranspar i used would be viable for metal spoons but thats the process i used to get the effect i got...
Edited by bluetickhound, 26 July 2012 - 09:40 AM.