LIARS CORNER Posted September 12, 2012 Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) i am just getting started in the plastic making side of this buisness and have hit a wall. i bought the twin injector from bass tackle and tried to shoot some laminates and more times than not i wound up with bad cast so i have came to the conclusion that i am just incapable of using that darn thing sooo....... i have started doing one side at a time and the baits come out looking great HERE IS THE PROBLEM first of all im useing the 2" Baby Minnow Mold i shot a bunch of the top color and set them aside (i dont let them set long i do both sides in the same session) and then i put them back in the mold and shoot the other side my first attempt didnt work the two colors would peel apart so i came on here and done a search and took all the sugestion (350+ plastic temp) that had been posted and went back and tried again ....... well no luck i even used my heat gun to heat the tops i put back in the mold befor i shot the other side still same D@#$ thing ......... WTF its becoming very frustrating i cant figure it out how to make the two colors stick together PLEASE help me ...... i need to know what kind of magical spell i got to chant as i shoot these thing to make them stick together ...... its got to be magic Edited September 12, 2012 by LIARS CORNER Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jig Man Posted September 12, 2012 Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 When I do lams I use a blending block and shoot both at the same time trying to keep the same pressure on both injectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBehr Posted September 12, 2012 Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 Are you using any "additives" that may be causing issues?? softener, stabilizer, scent (a really problem!), is the problem with all colors...or just one? Try shooting the baits with plain, clear plastic and see if you have the same issue. If you do, you may want to try another vendor. If you don't, then one of your additives is causing the de-lamination issue. It's all about controlling the variables! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little man baits Posted September 12, 2012 Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 Also when shooting lams I have found from this forum as well that u need to bring the temp down as cool as u can other wise u will get a swirl not a true lam. I try to shoot around (310ish) Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNC Molds N Stuff Posted September 12, 2012 Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) Not sure which mold you are using, but some laminate easier than others. The only baits I make as separate pours are those with different tail, foot, claw colors, and I designed those with either thin sections or to interlock or both so they would bond better. For laminates I currently use the Bass Tackle Twinjector, and it "mosty" works ok. Some folks have made a big deal about "exactly the same temperature," or hotter plastic. As you probably already know running your plastic at higher temps often has its own group of problems. Some molds are very difficult to get laminates the way we think they should laminate. Often things like the blade or plate that creates the hook slot in a bait can cause an unexpected swirl. Other times a constriction like the tight neck of a lizard can cause issues. Sometimes a deep belly on a bait fish design will fill with one color while the back color is going all the way to the tail because it doesn't have as much body to fill. Regardless, I have found that a modest temperature that I can stir easily with both plastics and careful uniform filling (without picking up any air) of the injector works pretty well. I don't usually use my temp gun to try and get the plastics the "exact" same temperature. Instead I stir them to check if they "feel" close to the same viscosity. When I was learning I used my temp gun a lot, and it helped, but I have found that quite often when using different "formulas" they had that best feel at a little bit different temperatures. You need to make sure your blending block is square to the mold. Some are more forgiving then others, and some will make your baits come out with lopsided colors if the block isn't exactly square in the direction you want. Some colors do not make good laminates too. Two transulecent colors that are not grossly constrasting usually works the best, but sometimes you just want the colors you want, and you will have to struggle to get it just right. Another thing, is I have found that some molds I couldn't get to laminate very well at all when i first tried now seem to work better since I have gained a little smidgeon of experience. I know that's a frustrating thing to hear, but unfortunately quality skill and experience often come at the expense of a few failures. Edited September 12, 2012 by Bob La Londe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallmouthaholic Posted September 12, 2012 Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 The Shootstar system from Bears baits will end your problems providing both colrs are of the same viscosity and temperature. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNC Molds N Stuff Posted September 12, 2012 Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) The Shootstar system from Bears baits will end your problems providing both colrs are of the same viscosity and temperature. Sigh, I know this is probably going to start one of those back and forth things that never ends well, but I disagree. Bears Shooting Star System looks very very good, but it is not a magic cure all for all that ails one. I think its the cats meow, so those who will just knee jerk defend when there isn't an attack to begin with can just hold off. A lot of small bait makers or guys with just a few molds don't want to make enough plastic to work with a pair of Presto Pots. You ever pour just one (1) cup of plastic into a Presto Pot? Yet I can shoot dozens of baits wth one cup of plastic.... (For some of my smaller molds close to a hundred.) Hold on fans. I think the Shooting Star System is aweome! So hold your defense. There is no attack here. For a small bait maker with only a few molds or shooting small batches its not as practical as two Pyrex or Anchor measuring cups and a Twinjector. Anyway, the same temperature is a good starting point, but as I described I think that sometimes with some colors, additives, etc you will get the same viscosity at slightly different temperatures. I can shoot dark salted plastics and light colored unsalted plastics and get decent laminates in some molds. They are not at the same temperatures in order to both shoot well. And one last one to make sure that the fans know this is not an attack... The Bears Shooting Star system is "The Bee Knees, Man," for anybody who needs a litte more volume of hot plastic at one time. Edited September 12, 2012 by Bob La Londe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallmouthaholic Posted September 12, 2012 Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 The shoooting star systems works because- 1- there are no blending block to cool the plastic 2- the dual injector has a variable heated control that keeps the injector hot,hence no cooling of the plastic 3- much more reliable and safer vs. the pyrex and micro wave deal 4- repeated heating in the microwave affects the plastisol viscosity and lighter colors 5- much faster w/ consistent results vs. all the negatives associated w/ pyrex and microwaves Yes it does cost 1k + for the initail set-up w/ complete pots and accessoriesbut in the long run saves money,time and aggrevation. Is it the perfect solution,no,but its the best available and minor changes are in the works to work w/ small amounts of plastisol in each presto pot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted September 12, 2012 Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 If you are wanting to laminate with the Twinjector let me give you a few hints that seem to help out alot of people. While the Twinjector is very well made these tips help out the new owners with a few things. The unit works better if all the parts are not tight, the top knobs should be loose and the caps on the tubes should be 1/4 turn from tight. This will smooth out the unit and deaden the feeling of binding aluminium. The temps are very important and should be within ten degs of each other. Most people when they start dont have a way of measuring the temps. When you know for a fact the temps are right the light will go off and laminates will be second nature. But I do know the lower the temp the better looking the laminate. I have a couple of videos on the use of the Twinjector on you tube that should help with the visual part of things. Look up franksrooty2 on you tube and see if that helps. If not pm me and give me your phone # and we can go over it. Frank 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNC Molds N Stuff Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) 1. The OP already has a Twinjector. 2. They want to make laminates in a mold that has just that sort of choke point which can cause swirl difficulties. 3. The size and volume of the mold indicates they don't need a large amount of plastic, and in fact might have an issue with it. 4. I don't disagree that the Shooting Star System may be able to do it. I do think its overkill for the application. (This is not an attack on it. I think its Aaaaaawsome.) 5. I think viscosity and squareness of the injectorts/block are going to be critical with the mold they have regardless of what system they use. 6. The Shooting Star does cost $1000.00, but I never raised that as an issue. I do get a little frustrated that often when somebody says, "THIS IS WHAT I HAVE. HOW CAN I MAKE WHAT I HAVE WORK?" and there is a possibility that what they have can be made to work, some people don't listen and say, "You need to spend more money." (Personally i think the SSS is an incredible deal for the price.) To the OP: Liar's Corner? The tackle shop in Phx? If so come down to Yuma some time and bring your mold. I'll burn up some plastic trying to help you get it to laminate, and if it goes fast we can go fishing on the river afterwards. Oops. Just saw you indicate Alabama. Well the invite is still open, but maybe not so practical. LOL. Edited September 13, 2012 by Bob La Londe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 Frank is right, temperature is your biggest factor when doing laminates. Keep in mind that I laminate as many as 80 baits at one time. No matter how big the gate in the mold is, it's all about making the material enter the cavity at the same time at the same temperature. Thus you have laminates. No matter how you put the plastic in the mold, if you're trying to use two colors at one time, this is the hurdle you will have to get over. As far as the Shooting Star goes, it is the closest to a machine made laminate that you can get in a hand pour application. Or the closest anyone has demonstrated so far. The price would just be according to your personal preference. One issue that comes up when doing laminates by hand is consistency. So far the Shooting Star seems to have demonstrated the most consistency of anything else out there, if there is something else don't scold me, but tell me where to go to watch it in action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 The Twinjector was the first to be consistant by design. The top bar that prevent the injectors to be moved independently which provides the foundation for real consistant laminates. Some people have issues with the blending block, they say it plugs up. That is an issue from the injectors cooling to fast. I have a video where I keep the Twinjector in the prestos at the same time, i never clean them out just fill and shoot. That is where I discovered that the temp at the injector means WAY more than the temp of the block. Yes I still have to clean out the block but it takes about 4 seconds to open and close. It was also designed to fill at the same time so both colors fill at the same rate. All things correct and the unit in good working order the Twinjector will laminate ANY size mold with ease. I have the new 1.5" swimbait from Basstackle the gate is smaller than an 1/8 of an inch and it fills real good but on that one the temps need to be a little higher like 320s. For the price it can do the job without a doubt. I will continue to help all who want it, at least with the Twinjector because I have the FIRST one ever made and it have literaly gone through drums of plastic and it is still going. In fact it is cooloing down as I write this. It is the energizer bunny. Maybe not the first one or the best but it works and plenty of people have it and use it. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIARS CORNER Posted September 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 Thanks everyone for your replies and comments im sure it will make all the diffrence, i didnt get a chance to try the laminates again last night i had some solid colors i had to shoot i believe im going to try the twinjector again tonight and keep the temp low and see how it comes out yall are a bunch of great people who take time out of your busy day to help others and i cant tell yall how much i appreciate it i just hope one day i can return the favor Thanks all Herman Bryant Liars Corner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) Frank, I didn't mean to offend you, I have no doubt that you have consistant laminates, ive seen your videos, but you have been doing it alot longer than others. I guess I should've worded what I said different, what I should've said is the shooting star is the only complete unit specifically designed for hand shooting laminates. Either way, I think its an inovvative great new idea and I'm sure that it will be knocked off in some form or another. Its another new product that can change the way that things are currently done and set a new standard for plastic hand injecting. Herman, you'll find TU a great place for information, there is just too many great guys on this forum to name. You'll find on this forum so many individuals that are wiling to help get through the hurdles of making baits, but I dont think that there is another forum out there where folks are so eager to help. Great forum with great people, you just cant beat it. Edited September 13, 2012 by carolinamike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 Everything get knocked off sooner or later. And everything has been built before we just choose to see it the way we see it. If you just set around and say it is as good as it gets and dont try and make it better then we all lose. To be knocked off is the greateast compliment some take it other ways but when you quit evolving you get passed over. Maybe my impression of new ideas is skewed because I use my molds.injectors plastic and glitter pretty much every day. So I have a practical sence in my mind. There is no one do all system so we just adapt to what we have. A few people said things dont work or have flaws so I made my videos to show how it works for me. Now i dont hear so much from them anymore cause the videos dont lie. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolinamike Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Yeah Frank I think Gary Yamamoto has profited as much from being knocked off as he has marketing the Senko. The last classic I went to when the GY Pro got up and demonstrated the Senko at the tank, they actually promoted it as the most reproduced bait ever to have been put on the market. He kept a positive outlook and look where it took him. A lot of people get hung up on their ways of doing things and when something new comes out, it usually has to take a lot of criticism. I don't know if you were on the forum when the injectors came out, but the first company to market them and sell them literally went through hell over it. There were so many comments made on this forum and others about how it was a bad idea, it wouldn't work, it was too slow, not as good as hand pouring, you can't do consistent work with it and on and on. But within two years, all the companies that supply the hand pour folks have their own version of injector and injection molds now. Although some ideas may not be perfect, at least there are those that are trying to improve on the old ways (whether some people think it's improvements or not, it's up to them), instead of just talking about it. I give them credit when credit is due. And even though the Shooting Star may not be the perfect thing for laminates in some peoples opinions, it's nice to see someone actually put their money where their mouth is. Some people are so hung up on their ways of doing things, that they immediately turn their nose up at something new rather than give it a fair chance. Me personally, I'm glad I'm not that kind of fellow or I'd still be doing hand pours and working for someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallmouthaholic Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 (edited) Some people are so hung up on their ways of doing things, that they immediately turn their nose up at something new rather than give it a fair chance. You've hit the nail squrely on the head. Some folks just get intimidated by something new and better that cost $- so they ridicule it which I.M.O. is foolish w/out even trying the Shooting Star System before engaging their jaw bone. I'll state this once again- The biggest advantage is eliminating a cold blending block and having heated injectors. Using an I.R. thermometer to even the temps. in the Presto pots is paramount to sucess as well as both mixes being the same viscosity.The dual ,heated injector never has to be cleaned I had a bad experience w/ an exploding pyrex cup years ago and will NEVER use them again in an microwave or any other heating method. i was very fortunate i was holding it @ waist height when the hand grenade went off. I've read all the "never had a problem w/ them" here in the forum but for your own education and future safety,google exploding pyrex and read the stories. Edited September 15, 2012 by smallmouthaholic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluetickhound Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Sorry for bumping this but I didn't want to start a redundant thread for an existing topic.... Now that the shooting star system has been around a year or so does anyone have any new insights/ppinions concerning useabilty and/or results they're getting? Honestly, i am totally new to soft astics but have been iver in the hard baits forum for a year now... I would have no qualms whatsoever about spending the 1000+ dollars for the system but I need to be sure it's worth it... Especially for someone with no real prior experience with soft baits. It seems fairly simple to set up and use but appearances can be decieving.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgecrusher Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 If you are wanting to laminate with the Twinjector let me give you a few hints that seem to help out alot of people. While the Twinjector is very well made these tips help out the new owners with a few things. The unit works better if all the parts are not tight, the top knobs should be loose and the caps on the tubes should be 1/4 turn from tight. This will smooth out the unit and deaden the feeling of binding aluminium. The temps are very important and should be within ten degs of each other. Most people when they start dont have a way of measuring the temps. When you know for a fact the temps are right the light will go off and laminates will be second nature. But I do know the lower the temp the better looking the laminate. I have a couple of videos on the use of the Twinjector on you tube that should help with the visual part of things. Look up franksrooty2 on you tube and see if that helps. If not pm me and give me your phone # and we can go over it. Frank Your videos are absolutely awesome Frank, I've been watching them for days after ordering my first lot of gear (just handpour swimbaits) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbj11lbs Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 once I was able to measure temperatures and keep them even I was able to laminate with no issue at all. keep your twinjector cleaned really well because i had some pressure issues with mine when too much build up was left in the tubes and one side would draw up the plastic and the other would not. So after getting some pipe cleaner brushes ive yet to mess a laminate up..knock on wood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbayte Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Frank, where can I find your videos? If it is in the thread I have missed it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNC Molds N Stuff Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 https://www.youtube.com/user/franksrooty2 Here is a good one: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 Just posted up a video on a new product from High Rock Molds. It is still the Twinjector but a base that is heated and holds the whole thing at a level that makes things easy. Also show how the blending block does not clog as others have said. Just another option for laminating. Frank 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smallmouthaholic Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 (edited) Frank, Nice ,instructional video. You've help many beginners w/ them. That said, 1- I don't like the plastisol fumes coming off the presto pots-why no exhaust booth?-exhaust hood?No respirator? You only have one set of lungs 2-You have to stir the two mixes by hand- not so w/the Shooting Star complete system. I prefer the stirring system Bear's offers- keeps gliiter and salt suspended 3-Your Bass tackle blending block does and will clog w/out cleaning. Not a shot in the back against bass tackle,just the facts.You still had to clean the blending block-no block to clean w/ the Shooting Star Everyone seems has their own ideas and thoughts that are influenced by their budget and willingness to move up to a better system I.M.O.. For simplicity and price,your system seems good. I tried the twin-injector and blending block years ago and returned it.. Have you ever had the opportunity to use the Shooting Star System? The original Shooting star system has had two recent modifications/improvements and I instigated the 3rd so one can almost empty the pots w/ a very small amount of plastisol left over. Vanilla ,chocolate and strawberry- to each his own.Thank you for taking the time to post this video. Edited for layout Edited June 2, 2013 by smallmouthaholic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluetickhound Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 I am going to wait and save the $$$ for the shooting star setup. Until then I will just open pour to get the mechanics down. After reading and watching all the youtube videos I just believe the shooting star is what I'd eventually end up going to and don't want to spend $$$ in between (that could be being put aside for the SS) on other setups, no knock on the twinjector (it seems kime once you get the hang if it would be good as the videos I've seen attest...) but the SS just seems like a more polished, foolproof deal. The price is actually quite a bargain once you factor in the presto pots, mixers and all the other stuff you get for your +- $1100.00.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
