atlasstone

Benchtop Test Tank

144 posts in this topic

JBlaze - Pete's pool pump (converted to US gallons) would give a flow rate of 12" per second, through a 6" x 6" section. Enough to work I think.

 

This does not have to be a tube. You just need to fence off an area at the side of the tank the size you want and pull/push the water through. This way, the lure insertion/mounting is simplified.

 

Deep divers are not an issue in shallow test tanks, you adjust the height of the line until it stops hitting the bottom.

 

Dave

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The issue I had putting the lure directly in the flow of a pump was trying to keep it stable.  My assumption is that it was falling out of the flow.  Do you think the pool pump would provide a tall enough water column or do you think it's just a matter of finding the right distance as the flow spreads out?

 

 

 

 Deep divers are not an issue in shallow test tanks, you adjust the height of the line until it stops hitting the bottom.

 

Agreed.  I've seen no difference in performance from baits rated to different depths. It's the same as running it beside the boat on short line to check the action while the boat is moving.

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Atlasstone, I sure appreciate that you started this thread.  You have got a lot of great minds working on this.

 

To all, does anyone know of a good open source or free CAD for computer.  I have not updated or used mine in years and I am not going to buy one for the little amount I use it, but I sure wish I had one right now.  I think I am just about to a point where I can put all we have learned together and do a common design.

 

Vodkaman, great help.  I need to convert the velocity to KM/hour or MPH to compare with normal operating velocities, but that is easy.  Your help has been great.  There is a reason you are so respected on this site.

 

Great work all, this site deserves credit again.

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Anglinarcher - kind words, appreciated.

 

Not sure how those velocity units help you, as at such slow speeds, it is difficult to visualize, whereas feet per second or metres per second is immediately visible. I usually think of speed in cranks per second, one crank of my reel being 0.5m. But, you use the units that you are most comfortable with :)

 

If I can help in any way with my design tools, just ask - you sketch on paper and I will draw.

 

Atlasstone - I think that as long as the pump inlet and outlet are well away from the reduced test area then the turbulence will be minimized. I agree with Anglinarcher, probably time to draw up these ideas.

 

Dave

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Tank 3.jpgDave I'm with you on the circular tank, I was walking around a circular swimming pool years back and was amazed at the velocity / inertia I could get after a few laps-- I was thinking along these lines when away fishing (no fish).

 

A bike wheel of the appropiate size with paddles attached and driven by a geared DC motor might work????

OR maybe a cage off a squirell cage fan (Pelton fan - I think)

 

Some great ideas as usual, still have not read all the posts.

Pete

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Edited by hazmail

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Pete - probably wouldn't need much speed. Possibly a windscreen washer motor would do the job as it had plenty of torque. Would have to experiment with the depth of paddles. 60rpm with full depth paddles would probably be too fast, although not all the water gets driven into the test area. Interesting proposal.

 

Dave

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Anglinarcher - kind words, appreciated.

 

Not sure how those velocity units help you, as at such slow speeds, it is difficult to visualize, whereas feet per second or metres per second is immediately visible. I usually think of speed in cranks per second, one crank of my reel being 0.5m. But, you use the units that you are most comfortable with :)

 

If I can help in any way with my design tools, just ask - you sketch on paper and I will draw.

 

 

Dave

Thanks Dave, I have an old copy of AutoCAD Light that I can work with, but I have to use the 10 year old back-up computer in the back room.  I am sure the program will not work on Windows 8.  If I can do it, can your program read .dwg files?  I have seen how you can draw, so you could sure clean up my work.

 

The reason I was going to convert is a BAD reason.  I hate trolling with a passion, I grew up doing it and I get bored even thinking about it.  Nevertheless, in the USA, if you are going to sell lures, you had better be able to troll with them.  Most recreational boats troll from about 1 to 4 miles per hour, and most trolling fishermen seem to like to troll at 1.5 to about 2.5 miles per hour.  So, if I am going to sell lures, they need to work in that range. 

 

A boat does not register speed in inches or meters per second.  LOL

 

Personally, I cast and retrieve and the units of inches per second or meters per second are better for me.  I just can't mentally convert my comfort zone to the paying customer's comfort zone. :mad:  

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Anglinarcher - it is posible to import 2D autocad drawings. You have to save as DXF first. Text is the biggest issue.

 

Dave

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attachicon.gifTank 3.jpgDave I'm with you on the circular tank, I was walking around a circular swimming pool years back and was amazed at the velocity / inertia I could get after a few laps-- I was thinking along these lines when away fishing (no fish).

 

A bike wheel of the appropiate size with paddles attached and driven by a geared DC motor might work????

OR maybe a cage off a squirell cage fan (Pelton fan - I think)

 

Some great ideas as usual, still have not read all the posts.

Pete

I like your sketch concept.  I am not sure that I would call it circular, but it does incorporate some great concepts.

 

I like how you incorporated Atlasstone's round ends.  I like Dave's concept of the windscreen motor - they are cheep at most salvage yards.  I suspect you would need to run the paddle wheel for a little time to get the momentum and therefore velocity up, but that is not a problem.

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You guys are talking way above my pay grade, but something came to mind. Not sure what it's intended use was, or where I saw it, but I can remember seeing a sort of water tunnel with a prop in it. What it amounted to was a piece of PVC pipe with a prop inside. It was mounted in such a way so the tunnel remained completely submerged and the prop shaft was centered inside the PVC. Can't recall exactly how the motor was mounted, but the prop shaft was long enough that the motor was away from the tunnel so as not to impede flow. If memory serves me correctly (which could be a long shot) there was very little cavitation once the water got to moving. Not sure this will help, but maybe it's something ya'll haven't considered yet.

 

Ben

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I like your sketch concept.  I am not sure that I would call it circular, but it does incorporate some great concepts.

 

I like how you incorporated Atlasstone's round ends.  I like Dave's concept of the windscreen motor - they are cheep at most salvage yards.  I suspect you would need to run the paddle wheel for a little time to get the momentum and therefore velocity up, but that is not a problem.

Yes Anglinarcher, sorry I'm a late entry in this concept/ mockup---- I don't know of any patent on this "Stadium" geometeric figure, I believe the Greeks hybrodised it from a circle a long time ago, so I just expanded a circle as they would have--"A stadium is a geometric shape constructed of a rectangle with semi-circles at opposite ends"

I wonder if you have read past posts on this subject - "pumps / test tanks" of up to 3 -4 years past.

Go figure?????????? And I will leave you with it.

Pete

Edited by hazmail

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Yes Anglinarcher, sorry I'm a late entry in this concept/ mockup---- I don't know of any patent on this "Stadium" geometeric figure, I believe the Greeks hybrodised it from a circle a long time ago, so I just expanded a circle as they would have--"A stadium is a geometric shape constructed of a rectangle with semi-circles at opposite ends"

I wonder if you have read past posts on this subject - "pumps / test tanks" of up to 3 -4 years past.

Go figure?????????? And I will leave you with it.

Pete

All is good Pete, the circular versus the "Stadium" concept was due to a comment I made about a device Mack's Lures in Washington State made, and about how a lure that runs in a circular will wash out if it hunts at all.  This is not a put down on what you said, just a minor clarification.

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You guys are talking way above my pay grade, but something came to mind. Not sure what it's intended use was, or where I saw it, but I can remember seeing a sort of water tunnel with a prop in it. What it amounted to was a piece of PVC pipe with a prop inside. It was mounted in such a way so the tunnel remained completely submerged and the prop shaft was centered inside the PVC. Can't recall exactly how the motor was mounted, but the prop shaft was long enough that the motor was away from the tunnel so as not to impede flow. If memory serves me correctly (which could be a long shot) there was very little cavitation once the water got to moving. Not sure this will help, but maybe it's something ya'll haven't considered yet.

 

Ben

Ben,

 

I am getting a little gun shy, so don't take this wrong..................Your idea is an excellent one.

 

One of the other videos posted before in this thread, the one that showed the spoons being tested, used a prop.  I believe others have discussed this also.  I also believe Atlasstone discussed that he had tried the prop as well.

 

In the end, the prop may be the best way, it is hard to say.  As hazmail indicated, this is a subject that has been discussed for at least 4 years on this site, longer then I have been a member, and that long, or longer, on other sites that I am also a member of.  Some would say that the problem cannot be solved, and then we see the results of Atlasstone's video, and the video I posted of Meps spinners on YouTube, and we start to thinking that IT IS INDEED POSSIBLE.

 

Soooo, what is the best method?  First, let's try to decide what WE want.

 

We saw a tank posted that tested flies.  The tube used was 3.5" in diameter and the line tie was centered in one end.  The flies are not required to move up, down, or side to side, and as such the tank is perfect for them.  It should also be noted that in the video, turbulence is causing the fly to move, just like it would in a stream or river.

 

OK, we need a little clarification here.  Laminar flow is where the flow of water is smooth, consistent, straight.  If a drop of colored water was inserted into a laminar flow of water the drop would move from one end of the tank to the other with little change in size of shape.  Turbulence is when the flow is constantly mixing, is not smooth or consistent, and as such the flow within the test area is not straight throughout.  If a drop of colored water was inserted into laminar flow, the size and shape of the drop will change quickly and will mix completely into the surrounding water.  Cavitation is a different property.  Cavitation is caused when the movement of a fluid, in this case water, is sufficiently turbulent, and changing so rapidly, that it creates specific locations that have a vacuum.  Water has a boiling temperature of 212 degrees F. at sea level, but when subjected to a large enough vacuum, it will boil at room temperature, creating water vapor or gas instead of liquid water.  If I remember correctly, the vacuum is about 30 of head, or in other words, you cannot suck water more then 30 feet vertically without it creating a void, or cavitating.  Props tend to create cavitation when they start in a fluid and if they are run too fast.  Because of this extreme form of turbulence, it takes a lot longer for the turbulence to even out.

 

Back to the fly test tank.  For flies, the test tank they showed is perfect, for their use, in their conditions, .........

 

I would propose that there is no one solution that will solve all problems.  I remember Larry Dahlberg saying he solved the problem by making a tank that was several feet long and several feet wide in his basement.  OK, I am married and my wife WILL NOT allow that.  I know that Vodkaman has done something similar as well, but he lives where hard water is not a problem, so a basement was not required.

 

For me, I need a bench test tank that I will keep a lure in place so I can view it over a long time, or video it, so I can see what action it has.  This way I can make minor changes to the lure and see how it changes it.  Because the water is moving, not the lure, but I want the lure to act like it is moving, and not the water, I need laminar flow.  I need a tank that is not so big that my wife will keep the tank and kick me to the curb.  I need the flow wide enough for my wider swimming swim baits, but can also be deep enough for some of my diving baits.  As has been indicated before, if the line tie is above, and at an angle, then I can get away with a fairly shallow tank, but the width must be equal to the max width of my expected bait swim.  Clearly this is why Larry Dahlberg went with his tank, he was working on a wide gliding bait.  I am not working on anything that wide.  But because of the requirement I have, the fly test tank just won't work.  Because of the requirement of a laminar flow, a prop is problematic. 

 

But, is what I need what everyone else needs?  What are YOUR needs?  Maybe before we ask Vodkaman to draw this up we need to see if we are on the same sheet of music.  Are well all in agreement?  I propose that at least the following things need to be agreed upon first.

 

1) depth?

2) width?

3) laminar or turbulent?

4) range of flow speeds needed?

5) adjustability?

6) overall size limit?

7) other?  Please specify

 

Wow, I did not think one misunderstanding would get me into such a need to clarify so much, but I sure don't want anyone to be offended by my comments again.

 

Atlasstone, you are the one to start this thread, and the only one with a working prototype that I know of.  Can you chime in on this and comment on what you think we need?

 

Thanks everyone, I think I will go make a bait now.

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 Atlasstone, you are the one to start this thread, and the only one with a working prototype that I know of.  Can you chime in on this and comment on what you think we need?

 For me, I just wanted something to test crank baits in. From an 'end user' perspective, I needed something:

1. Easy to set up

2. Easy to tear down

3. Easy to store

4. Required little real estate (benchtop)

5. Could be run indoors

 

From an engineering (and I use that term loosely) and design perspective, I determined that I needed:

1. Fast flow

2. Consistent flow

3. Controllable flow

4. Adjustable flow

5. Tall water column

 

Anything else such as turbulent vs lamnar, round verses angled etc are really solutions so determining the right solution to meet the requirements is the real challenge.  My biggest struggle was getting the water column to be tall enough to allow the bait to move in it without falling out of it.  Hazmail's ide might very well solve that if the blades are tall enough like a paddle wheel of sorts.

 

I have to say that from a consisitency perspective, the laminar flow looks to be the way to go because of how it splits the column into layers.  I'm interested in hearing more ablout the prop idea too.  All of my tests were dismal failures when using a prop so I'd like to know what I did wrong.

 

I am glad that this topic has taken off though.  I think it's a worthwhile topic and a seems to be a respectable challenge as well.

 

I'm not sure if I answered your question but I hope it helps.

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Not sure, but I might need to clarify what I was talking about as well. The idea of the prop inside the pipe was solely for the purpose of getting the water to move. The lure would not be located in the tube. In the one I saw the prop was located at the inflow of the pipe with the water having to flow the length of the pipe before it exited. As I said before you guys are talking about things I have very little knowledge of, but I took the positioning of the prop and the water flowing through the length of pipe being done this way to dampen the cavitation caused by the prop. Once the water started flowing throughout the tank there was a noticeable reduction in any swirling and otherwise disturbed water. I did read the other posts about using a prop, but didn't recall one being used inside a length of pipe. If there was it's my bad.

 

I have no idea if using a prop this way will work, or is even worth the trouble to try it. I just threw it out there as something that possibly hadn't been thought of. No feelings were hurt as this wouldn't be the first time something I suggested didn't work.

 

Ben

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I don't know if any of you guys remember but a few years ago there was a video out and I believe it was even on here of five crankbaits all the same but weighted differently and they were in a test tank with a laminar flow. You could see the different actions and depths they would run because of the different weighting. I had the video for a long time, but can't seem to find it. I know some of the old timers on here would remember. Anyway, that tank was the real deal.....

 

Rod

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A/A -   Ah!!! I see it all now, that's the trouble with print versus face to face, sorry if I got off my high horse--all's good here too.

 

Trying to find a 'stadium' style tank and nothing available that comes close, seems we may have to make one somehow -maybe cut a round drum in half for the ends then 'stick' them onto the ends of a square tank - come to think of it I have seen a vertical water storage tank this shape somewhere :?. .

Pete

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I really like Ben’s idea of building a list of specs.

 

One variable that has not been discussed in any detail, is the speed that you want the water to flow in the test area. There is a minimum speed that lures will require to function. I cannot remember what it is and my tank is currently dismantled, so I cannot help, but I seem to remember that it is around 12” per second. I need you as a group to confirm this number with the various lures that will be tested. I am really hoping that you come up with a number less than 12” per second, otherwise the pump numbers get very high.

 

You need to establish what pump is available at the right price. Knowing the pumped volume and the lure test speed, we can calculate the available test area. Then you can decide if this is large enough or do we abandon the pump idea and look for another solution.

 

Dave

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A/A -   Ah!!! I see it all now, that's the trouble with print versus face to face, sorry if I got off my high horse--all's good here too.

 

Trying to find a 'stadium' style tank and nothing available that comes close, seems we may have to make one somehow -maybe cut a round drum in half for the ends then 'stick' them onto the ends of a square tank - come to think of it I have seen a vertical water storage tank this shape somewhere :?. .

Pete

 

Pete

 

plenty of slimline rainwater tanks around this part of the world in that shape. Here's just the first I found via google - http://www.gardenerswatertanks.com.au/colorbondsizes.html

Whether they're wide enough without going too big might be an issue though.

 

Steve

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Thanks Steve-- that looks about perfect to me ("1150 litre"  - L 68"x D 40"x W 30" ), similar to "Atlasstone's'" neat glass tank, gave up on aquariums as size was a problem - I have searched everywhere under 'plastic tanks', dumbo me forgot about 'colour bond' tanks--

Just have to add a clear panel (and water wheek and motor etc etc) - I threw out a B&D electric garage door lifter a while back :drool: it may have been perfect here.

Thanks again, if it doesnt work I can always fill it with rainwater - if it ever rains??

Pete

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Pete - I like the second one. Big though, would work as a simple static tank.

 

Dave

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I really like Ben’s idea of building a list of specs.

 

One variable that has not been discussed in any detail, is the speed that you want the water to flow in the test area. There is a minimum speed that lures will require to function. I cannot remember what it is and my tank is currently dismantled, so I cannot help, but I seem to remember that it is around 12” per second. I need you as a group to confirm this number with the various lures that will be tested. I am really hoping that you come up with a number less than 12” per second, otherwise the pump numbers get very high.

 

You need to establish what pump is available at the right price. Knowing the pumped volume and the lure test speed, we can calculate the available test area. Then you can decide if this is large enough or do we abandon the pump idea and look for another solution.

 

Dave

Dave - 12" a second is pretty much 1 K/hr which would be on the lower limit of the lures I make/ use (up to about 4K/hr max) but generally troll at 2.5 - 3 K/hr--I think it's more what certain species of fish SEEM to like, rather than what I / we like--------------BUT like you say we have to start somewhere.

 

I think those "stock tanks" would be a cheap alternative to aquariums but I still would like something deeper (maybe up to 2.5' - 3'), my latest brainstorm :drool:  :?  has led me to the rubbish tip looking for some old top loading freezer cabinets, wide, deep, long and pretty water tight and maybe with a sheet of toughened glass stuck in the side would be O.K--havn't found a suitable size yet--thank god I'm not married though, imagine the drama :halo: .

Pete

Edited by hazmail

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........my latest brainstorm :drool:  :?  has led me to the rubbish tip looking for some old top loading freezer cabinets, wide, deep, long and pretty water tight and maybe with a sheet of toughened glass stuck in the side would be O.K--havn't found a suitable size yet--thank god I'm not married though, imagine the drama :halo: .

Pete

 

 

Pete

 

my wife dreads hard rubbish day :pissed:

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