Design Software Question For You Cad Users...

[FishnFreak]

I'm in the process of exploring the option to learn CAD software for the purpose of designing lures and molds. I'm a college graduate (B.S. in Business Management) and would love to think about being able to CNC machine aluminum molds down the road as a business idea. 

 

I'm under no illusions about the competition in the market place, the difficulty of the software or the expense of the equipment. I'm nowhere near pulling the trigger on any of this. I'm just beginning to unravel the pieces some and explore the possibility. 

 

For those of you who machine your own aluminum molds, what CAD software program is best suited for that? What about using CAD software to create a master lure from which to make smaller silicone molds? Any info on the best software for fishing lure/mold design would be great. 

 

As I said - I'm nowhere near starting any of this, but I am curious. What is a standard price tag on a CNC machine thats ideal for lure and mold creation? Not something industrial, but something a little smaller. 

 

I appreciate any answers!

[CNC Molds N Stuff]

I can take a 1000-2000 dollar hobby machine and have it cutting molds mostly out of the box, but production is glacial.  (days not hours)  I can take that same machine with the knowledge I have now and increase production dramatically by throwing a grand or two at it and get modest production, but still require frequent adjustment and service.  (I could not have done that a few years ago)  If I were going to start with production in mind I'ld figure a minimum of 6-7000 for the machine.  There are some new machines out there that will do a passable job as mold makers with manual tool changes and modest service levels at around that price.  This does not include a control computer, control software, or an CAD or CAM software.  If you want to start with something good (not great, not gold plated, not super, just good and not hobby level) then figure around $10K give or take to get started.  If you are a knowledgeable machine builder you can maybe start with a used machine and fix it up or maybe even build one from scratch.  I am doing both modernization retrofits and new machine builds myself for my own use.  I bought one nice machine for $500 at an auction, but by the time I get it the way I want it I'll have $3-5K into it.  Of course that same machine new would be about $25-30K.

 

When it comes to CAD the software ranges from free to $10K+.  I have always struggled with most of the free stuff that will do or claims to do 3D.  Blender, Sketchup, FreeCAD, etc...  The cheapest software I found that I can do 3D with and get mostly what I want is ViaCad 2d/3d.  It was a pretty steep learning curve, but I was able to get some predicatable results the first day I played with it.  Most of your serious guys are laying out thousands on more expensive CAD software.  Some with a CAM plug-in and some without. 

 

CAM is a-whole-nuther story.  Once you learn how to make the pretty picture you have to create the machine code to turn the pretty picture into a real world piece of work.  This also ranges from free to $10K+. It can be standalone taking files generated by CAD or be a plugin package that is designed to work with your CAD directly.  I kind of like things being separate, but I have to admit the CAM I use does also have some limited CAD capabilities.  I use CamBam, not because its the best, but because I was able to struggle through and get some predicatable results in a realtively short time, and its not expensive.  Is it the best.  No absolutely not, but it can't be touch for anywhere close to the price.  Its not free. 

 

Contrary to the false belief of every single beginner (myself included) CAM is absolutely in no way a substitue for learning how to machine.  If you think it is or think you know better I hope you have a large budget for broken tools and machine repairs.  This means learning to wrap your head around speeds and feeds, types of milling, cutter geometry and coatings, and a variety of other things.  For me the easist place to start was to break some tools, but if you get a real machine to start with you are just as likely to break your machine.  A big bad high speed machine generates enough force to seriously damage itself,  Even my hobby machines have taken some damage from mistakes. 

 

Summary:

 

CAD - Generate pretty pictures.

CAM - Write code to make pictures real.

Control - Read code and drive machine.

 

I use mostly, but not exclusively:

CAD - ViaCad

CAM - CamBam

Control - Mach 3 & LinuxCNC (formerly EMC2)

[Vodkaman]

There is a plethora of CAD software out there that is capable of doing the job. I use CATIA V5 and so that is the only software that I can talk about.

 

CATIA V5 is an engineering world industry standard, usually sold by time license and extremely expensive. However, to promote the software and encourage engineers to learn the complex program, the company actually puts out a lot of pirate copies, after all, if no one could use the software then it
would fail.

 

If you are a man of few scruples like myself, there are ‘torrents’ of free downloads of this software, but make sure you download some training manuals and be prepared to spend many MANY hours of learning. Having someone to spend a few hours to show you the ropes is the best way to start. Check out any engineering friends that you have, they may be able to put you in contact with a CATIA user.

Something else to bear in mind – if you do not use the program for many months, you will likely have to start the learning process over again. If you are not going to use the CAD regularly, then CATIA is
probably not a good choice. See what others recommend, do some current thread discussing cheap machines. I would be wary of going this route, unless you are going to be making hundreds of molds, then you would be better off producing the CAD master and handing it over to a machinist.

Another option that I have been meaning to try, is to send the CAD model to a company that does 3D printing. Quality has come a long way in recent years and these plastic printouts could be used as masters for making RTV molds. This would be the route that I would recommend at least for a start.
If you like the result, you could then send the CAD model to the machinist to get an ally mold cut.

Just a few thoughts.
 

Dave
 

[Vodkaman]

I see BOB got in there before me, he types faster than me

 

I have worked with Bob on a few lure projects and you should listen very closely to what he has to say.

 

Bob - hope we get to work together again real soon.

 

Dave

[Mr.Nsmith]

I use Autodesk Inventor Professional 2013 and it's a very easy for a beginner or even expert in CAD I get it from the college and many other people use Rhino, AutoCAD, etc but you can get a trial of Autodesk Inventor from Autodesk.com and install and download it. I have no clue about CNCin' and the necessary machinery to get moulds, but I can tell you a lot about Autodesk Inventor Pro 2013 and it's easy to make parts verses many other types of CAD that I have seen and used.....Keep on Fishin'

[SlowFISH]

More important that the total cost will be your time.  Bigger CAD packages (Pro E, Solidworks, Alias, Catia) alone may take years to really get a handle on what you doing... granted if you want to make fairly basic stuff - you can do that fairly easily.  But if you want to make highly detailed and controlled surfaces of your lures, you'll need to put the time in to train yourself and alot of it.  Nothing will beat seat time just making things to learn CAD.  You can take courses... but sitting there every day and working at it is the only way to really learn and become efficient.  That will be the same for CAM programing and the machining portions as well.  Each of those take considerable time and effort to learn.  

 

I started machining my own molds over a year ago (already had CAD experience).... I'm still breaking bits and making mistakes and that's using a prototyping material nowhere near as hard to machine as aluminum.  I figure after a few years of this I'll gain enough experience to have a good idea of what I'm doing... but it's a process and sometimes a frustrating and expensive one.

 

Best bet if you're really serious about it is to start with learning a good CAD platform.... with that - you can begin designing and CAD'ing up your ideas.  Then you can send files out to have aluminum molds made or rapid prototype parts created and your off and running with silicone or POP molds.  Trust me when I tell you having someone machine a mold or make parts is way cheaper than doing it yourself... plus you'll have your stuff made much quicker and more than likely of a much better quality than you can do yourself.  After you get enough experience and you know you still like the process you an spend for a CNC if you'd like and start building up that knowledge base.

 

 J.

[RFP]

There's also supposedly some softwares that are better for making 'natural' shapes than others. My prototyper does everything in solidworks...which is an awesome powerful software...but it was very challenging for him to draw natural shapes with and he's very experienced. It takes a lot of time to draw anything ...those years worth of experience would be worth saving a lot of your own time. But,... if that's what you want to do...just dive in and go for it. Living your own life is worth every penny.

[Vodkaman]

RFP - Spot on. Anyone who does engineering drawing on CAD is in for a shock when they decide to model a seemingly simple object like a crank body. It is an entirely different technique. Engineers hate using splines.

 

Dave

[patrick reif]

Once again I'm humbled by the intelligence of those on this site.

 

There are some smart guys here.

[omartinjordan]

I have the capability of scanning existing objects and making cad surfaces from them. You might look into something like that instead of starting from scratch.

[CNC Molds N Stuff]

I have the capability of scanning existing objects and making cad surfaces from them. You might look into something like that instead of starting from scratch.

 

What type of scan are you doing?

 

Laser?  Touchprobe?  Other? 

 

I have a touch probe and its fair.  I'ld like to have a laser scanner, but the David's kit doesn't look refined enough for me yet, and real laser scanners still cost real money. 

Edited March 10, 2013 by Bob La Londe

[omartinjordan]

The company I work for has several types of laser scanners and software for making models.

[FishnFreak]

Wow... Guys thank you very much for your answers. I have been away from TU for a bit and I was thrilled to see all the responses. To echo a comment from above - I am shocked and amazed at the intelligence of TU members on this thread. As I said I am still very much gathering information and trying to figure out the best way to move forward. I appreciate all the software tips. At this point I agree that the best thing to do is just take a bite and keep on chewing! I appreciate the info as well about sending off CAD files to have the master or the molds machined for me by someone who knows what they're doing. That really makes the most sense. 

 

Y'all have definitely given me more than enough to continue thinking about! I appreciate the info...

[cadman]

Been out of town, so catching up on some reading. I've been through many cad platforms. Started in Cadkey, then went to Auto Cad and now settled in on Solidworks 2013. All I can say is no matter what cad package you get, you will have to spend a lot of time drawing. The best teacher is tech support for the days you want to pull your hair out and friends for other days to help you along. There is no quick way to learn cad. I started on the board, drawing splines and sine curves, doing trig calculations via a calculator and a trig book, as time consuming as that was, you get a really good idea and appreciation of the complexity of how parts have been made before. Fast forward 30 + years and things have greatly changed making things much easier  to do in a shorter amount of time. However like anything else you need to know the basics. So for the sake of time, if I were you I would give your idea to have someone else make it. This way the burden is on him to get everything to work. You have the design side and the machine side as many have mentioned. Unless you know one or both, there will be many bridges to cross. Good luck. BTW I still hate working with splines and surfaces in Solidworks, What a P.I.T.A.