Jaw Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 I recently made three crankbaits with the same weight placement and the same bill but only one of the three had a good swimming action unfortunately in got hung up and broke off the other two just want to plow water and not dive they all were made of basswood with basically the same angle on the bill with only a few changes in the body shape and the same length any ideas on how to get a more consistent product and is there any way to change the two that I have left or do I just chalk it up as a learning experience. Here are the pics of the two I have left Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 Pity you did not show the whole length of the lip. To me, it looks like the tow eye is too far back. My guess is that the lure is swimming extreme nose down. If this is the case, gradually trim the lip back from the tip (shorten), until it swims hou you want. Don't remove too much at a time, no more than a millimeter or 1/16" at a time. You will be surprised at how little a change will make the action completely different. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 (edited) Such tow eye/lip configuration is only reliable to work with a slender and pointed lip , in case of your baits the lip's plane ahead of the tow eye is too large , too much water pressure works on it causing the lure to tip it's nose down only and not to wobble , in a worse case to overturn and blow out . Utilizing such slender and pointed lips it might also require a longer , slender body for better guidance in the water , .........if you do not want to alter the basic shape of lip and body , you'd need to place the tow eye further down ON the lip . At 7:55 of one of my YouTube videos I'm making a few words about such line tie /lip configuration , a swim display of that particular lure is shown somewhere earlier in the video : Good luck , diemai Edited March 25, 2014 by diemai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 Diemai - awesome video, one that everyone, new or old, would benefit from watching. Personally, I was hanging on every word and soaking up all that hard earned information that you were so generously sharing. Very nice to meet you face to face too Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAWGFAN Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 I agree, the bill is too long for where the line tie is. The good news is, they can probably be salvaged. Just trim the bill length, as was already suggested. Just as a guess, they should start to work correctly at around 7/8" of total bill length. A good pair of utility shears should cut your Lexan (I'm assuming that's what you used), then smooth by sanding. If you used plexiglass, you'll have other issues that may show up later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 Diemai - awesome video, one that everyone, new or old, would benefit from watching. Personally, I was hanging on every word and soaking up all that hard earned information that you were so generously sharing. Very nice to meet you face to face too Dave X2 Thank you Meister! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaw Posted March 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 Thanks guys I will try trimming the bill down gradually and see how it goes worst case scenario they don't swim any better than they do now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 @ Jaw Good luck , .....and please tell us about your progress . @ vodkaman I can imagine that you needed to be hanging on every word the way that I'm sometimes stammering in front of the camera , .....it's just different than typing , where I can read over and over again to even out any mistakes . English is not my mother language , ........and even over here in Germany they say of us northerners , that we do not like to make too many words and also would talk more deliberately . @ mark poulson Thanks , Mark ! greetz , Dieter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 It's difficult to trim a lip on a crankbait to fix its action but yep, the worst that can happen is it won't work anyway so you really have nothing to lose. I also think the lip on the green bait is too long to have the line tine in the nose of the bait. Can't tell as easily on the other bait. I haven't had great luck trimming the lips on crankbaits that don't work right. It isn't always the lip that's the problem; sometimes it's the lip angle, sometimes it's the body shape or the position or amount of ballast. You don't know until you examine it closely as it runs and then make changes to see how they work. It's just part of prototyping a new bait and once you get it nailed, you can make new baits with confidence that they'll perform - if you take good notes and measurements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 I trim square lexan lips on the water with sharp serrated scissors, or diagonal pliers, and sand them smooth with a sanding block with 80 grit. It's fast and easy. Curved lips are a whole 'nother ball game. I just use the sanding block, and take my time. But I've never tried to do it on the water to a curved lip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Maxwell Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Thank you for sharing a very informative and thought provoking video. Had to watch it twice so I didn't miss too much. Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaw Posted March 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Just got to watch your video diemai I have done a little work on one of the baits but haven't gotten to test it yet I will let everyone know how it turns out. After watching your video and reading the comments it's obvious that my line tie is to far back so I'm getting to much surface area of the bill affected to overcome on the initial dive the lure just noses down and plows water don't know why I didn't think of this before building I guess it's because I have been making shallower diving flat sided baits using circuit board lips they have good swimming action I'm pleased with them but I know I've got alot to learn but it's fun to figure it out thanks for the help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 I pretty much design all my baits with square lips, because lip trimming is a big part of the process. A good swimming bait is a combination of several variables, of which the lip is the easiest to adjust. Having a large test tank and a belt sander only a few feet away, makes lip tuning a breeze. Looking forward to the feedback whether positive or not. A good thread always finishes with feedback. Diemai - you make superb videos. No nonsense, packed with good information and easy to understand. As for your voice - very professional and clear to me. I don't even think about the accent or the fact that English is not your first language. Keep 'em coming I say. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 @ Jaw You saw in that video , that there is a small lure , that would not swim as well , ...I guess , this is because the lip plane above the tow eye(between tow eye and body) is too large , in result it somehow overrides the water pressure's force applied to the lower portion of the lip(the part beween line tie and tip) . If I would have placed the line tie somewhat more towards the body the equotation would have turned out in favour of more force applied onto the lower portion of the lip causing the lure to break out sideward and the straight line pull direction getting it back on track , in result the desired wobble would have occured . I haven't tinkered on that lure so far , ....I'm thinking to drill some holes into the upper portion of the lip to reduce it's plane there , ....haven't experimented with holes-in-lip so far , so I'm thinking to take a chance on this one , .....I can only learn , I reckon . So the situation is a little different to your own lures that wouldn't swim , ......but I agree with BobP , that it is always difficult to successfully tinker on the lip to finally save a lure from being a reject . @ vodkaman , @ Tony maxwell Thanks a lot for your support , gents , I really appreciate it ! Greetz , Dieter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Dieter - interesting idea drilling holes, but my guess is it won't make much difference. It will be an informative study either way though, and I will be happy to be proven wrong. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diemai Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) @ vodkaman Just thought of it , 'cause I had seen a Japanese crankbait in a catalog issued by a large local tackle supplier , ...this one is a shallow diver or even a wakebait with a downward pointing , squarish lip sporting two holes located closer to the belly of the lure . In the catalog describtion is said , that these holes would take some pressure off the lip , ......hence I grew that idea to try it on my own reject lure as well ,...... it's just about reducing the lip's plane at a given portion , .....as a side effect such holes would also create a different vortice pattern in the water , I reckon . Sadly I do not remember the name of that lure right now , got the catalog on the job , going again early next morning to accomplish my weekend shifts , .........if I'd remember , I'd check back and then I'd try to find a link containing a picture . Greetz , Dieter Edited March 28, 2014 by diemai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 When I got one of the first Rapala Scatter Raps, I was disappointed at how it blew out at even a moderate retrieve. So I drilled a hole in the lip near the body to try and relieve some of the pressure on it, but it didn't seem to help. I have to admit I quit throwing it because it just didn't swim well at anything but the slowest speeds, and our clear SoCal water fish don't like slow retrieves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Dieter - it is just unproven theory that prompted my comment. My interpretation could very well be wrong, and not for the first time. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobP Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) A little off topic, but I had the same opinion of the new Scatter Rap Shad as Mark did - my 2 cranks work only at slow retrieve speeds. A useful "hunting" crankbait should work at any speed, including warp 8. IMO, many crankbait fishermen tend to retrieve too slowly to get bass (especially largemouth) to react to the lure. If a bass has time to closely examine a crankbait, as often as not they'll give it a pass. Speed and stained water promote crankbait bites. Never say never - if you fish long enough you'll catch fish with a crankbait in crystal clear water with a slow retrieve (especially in very cold water), but as a general principle, I think it's true. Jaw, I think you're finding out that medium and deep diving baits are different - and harder to get to run correctly because there are more variables to juggle than just the length of the lip. Most of us went through the same experience and had (and still have!) the same failures as you. Edited March 28, 2014 by BobP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaw Posted March 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 Thank all of you guys for taking the time to share your information and expertise I am a novice when it comes to constructing crankbaits but I am enjoying the experience I have been making different flys jigs and wire baits for years now so the bug had already bitten me before now but I do enjoy the whole process I have made a few cranks and jerk baits that I am pleased with and I've made modifications to the ones in the pictures but haven't had time to test in the pond I don't have much hope that they are salvageable but maybe? Hope to have time to test tmrw but I won't spend to much time on them after that time to make a few more looking for some circuit board material to cut my own bills from used premade lexan on these think I should have made my own not real happy with the thickness of these I've made my own in the past out of thinner material but the bills on these lures would have been fine I believe if I would have extended the tow point farther up the bill and through it if that makes since still like the circuit board material better though just a cleaner look to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mzee Posted March 29, 2014 Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 another possibility is to drill two small holes in the bills farther out. fold some wire , push through the holes , bend the tails over and epoxy to the bottom of the bill. You have a new anchor point to try. just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaw Posted March 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2014 Well I got to test the green crank in the pond today and after trimming a little over 1/4" off the bill it totally changed the action and the bait dove well the wiggle action is a little tighter than I wanted but figure I should have tapered the body a little more I actually caught about a1&1/2 lb bass on my fourth or fifth cast it still dives to at least 5 ft was dragging bottom in the four ft water I was throwing it in its more like a squarebill now but I consider it a success next I will alter the white one a little more I didn't take off as much on it so it still needs work thanks again for the help and ideas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Thanks for the feedback and congrats on the rescue. DAve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaw Posted March 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Thanks Dave I really do appreciate all the help and advice from everyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Just take it slow. It's a lot easier to shorten a bill than to make it longer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
