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Posted 23 July 2004 - 09:58 PM
I have been working diligently on a particular 7 inch glider that is somewhat cigar-shaped but flat-sided and made from 3/4 stock. After shaping, adding the weight, and all hardware the bait will swim absolutely perfect, wide glide, great dart, very stable. Now, this is where the problem starts.
I generally test my baits with the weight added but the holes left unfilled. I understand that air can become trapped but have never felt this would be that significant, particularly since the baits I am building are heavy, more than 3 ounces. After I add the filler for the weight holes, seal the bait, primer, paper stencil, and two coats of Etex, the bait runs like crap! The glide distance is maybe 25% as far, the bait wants to roll, and overall reacts nothing like it did before finishing. By the way, if dropped into a bucket after finishing it drops perfectly, same posture, same descending rate. I have made this bait from basswood, poplar, and mahogany. The problem is greatest in the lighter woods but they also glide much better...prior to finish anyway. I have worked on this problem for literally a solid month now, probably 50 prototype baits and cannot figure out the problem. I don't know if it has something to do with the filler I am using in the bottom, the paper stencil, or the Etex, the weight, or just what.
Posted 23 July 2004 - 11:02 PM
I am thinking the lighter the bait the better the action.
Weight up the Etex mix, and guess to mit of the filler.
And subtract that from the amout of weight you are adding.
My bet is if you cut the weighting by half you should get the lively action back, that your are looking for.
Another wild stab here, because I know the type of excellent work you are doing, is the bait taking in any water during the testing?
Posted 23 July 2004 - 11:18 PM
What do you use to fill the weight holes with? Also, what do you seal the wood with? You also need to make a decission on a wood. Bouncing back and forth with different woods will drive you nuts. Select a wood and stick with it untill you get it right. If balsa is giving you the best action then start with that. Let me know and maybe I can help. We can get you through this.
Posted 24 July 2004 - 01:07 AM
After spending the last three hours in the shop experimenting I think you are at least partially correct....I am crazy! I have been weighting all my baits and then letting them dry, filling in the holes, sealing, painting, etc. Well get this, tonight I decided to take one of my baits that was ready for paint and toss it back into the water to see what would happen, it floated, it's not supposed to float!!!! Apparently I either overdried the wood after setting the weight or the wood had gotten too wet when I set the weight... sucks to be me.
Oh sure, now you tell me to "stick with one wood" after spending 3,000 hours experimenting with ALL of them, lol. You should see my shop, need a piece of oak, no problem. Maple, poplar, cedar, basswood, sure, help yourself! Thank you by the way for withholding any comments regarding the Etex. I just new when I was writing this post that Skeeter was poised with his Devcon Gun aimed straight at me! Oh well, the learning curve is steep at some points along the line for all of us it's just that it's particulary steep for me. You are of course entirely correct about selecting a wood and I intend to choose which wood I am going to use tomorrow, no the next day, ok next week, geez.
It's funny how just about the time you think you have it "all figured out"........you realize you don't know a damn thing. I'm tired, tomorrow is another day.
Posted 25 July 2004 - 07:12 PM
Remember that even using only one type of wood has it's own variation of density from one piece to another. So now you'll have to adjust for the different trees that the same kind of lumber came from. Now, don't that knock your hat in the creek?
Where else can you do something and swear that you'll never do it again only finding yourself doing it again. I ain't gonna make no more of dem type lures... and then start back tha next day makin dem exact kinda lures foe somebody else that wants one jest like dem firstuns.
Posted 26 July 2004 - 10:35 PM
The reason I suggested that you pick one type of wood and stick to it is because I am guilty of doing the same thing that you have. It drove me nuts. I only use two types of wood now. Balsa and my special hard wood. When I design a bait I make one out of each type of wood, test it, then make the decission. It has really made things allot easier for me.
Relax, the Devcon gun is in the holster. I'm just waiting for Richoc or Chip to stick their head out.
Posted 26 July 2004 - 11:43 PM
Welsaid Bill, yeeehaw.
I have taken your advice and am sticking with my fav hardwood as well. There are too many variables to deal with already and when you start changing woods it's overwhelming!
Posted 27 July 2004 - 06:55 AM
I recently visited the Boardwalk in Jersey and had to lagh a little. I came across one of those games in the Arcade that kind of reminded me of the Devcon - E-Tex war that goes on here. Skeeter Im glad your Devcon gun is in the holster, but it sounds as if its that Whack-A-Mole Game. Once someone sticks their little ole head up praising one of the "FINISHES or GLUE" BAMM!!! Cody
Posted 27 July 2004 - 09:34 AM
I like that BassNator! Jed one thing that I did when I was testing was just forget about the pre test, just Etex and test. Richoc Whacked-A-Mole when he said?
One other thing, when you drill for your weight you might have it too high in the bait. Then when you fill the hole you are adding more buoyancy under the weight. This all depends on what you are using for filling the leftover hole and how much. I hope this helps Jed.
Posted 28 July 2004 - 07:58 AM
Jed , once you get a bait with the action you want I would try weighing it with a precision scale and they slowly adding weight to the front hook and recording how much it takes for the bait to slowly sink. These two reference weights will allow you to compare the finished weight after painting to the test weights . Putting weight on the hook until it just sinks should give you a reference to the buoyancy of the lure before/after finishing . if the lure is soaking up water during your testing it will both affect the lure weight out of the water and it's bouyancy in the water .
I use a balance beam reloading scale for this type of thing and it can eliminate a lot of trial and error -good luck.......Ken
Posted 28 July 2004 - 08:40 AM
Another thought ???? with a crank bait the ballast weight(s) are typically positioned low and at the center turning axis of the bait (around the front hook hanger ). I don't know if you are positioning the lead you're adding along the length of the bait with the balsa models or not but from some experiments I've done it seems keeping the lead concentrated in the same low turning axis area gave me the best results . I compared it to one of those balsa glider planes I bought as a kid . It was lively and followed the weight in the nose but if you moved the weight back it wouldn't fly . The light weight wood will react to where the lead is placed and follow it . Keeping the weight in this turning axis allows the bait to turn easier and change directions while the heft allows the glide further.....
Posted 28 July 2004 - 08:44 AM
That is good Ken
Also Jed, another way you can play with the weight after the lure is finished is Thorne Bros has a weight kit. You drill a hole and add an insert then you can switch the weight around. When I was testing I used a brad nail with deferent egg sinkers. This is a way you can test the weight in deferent spots on the bait.
Keep in mind what weight you lure blank is before you start the prime and clear coat because every blank is different.
I hope this helps Jed. Let me know if you have any questions. You have a great looking lure I hope it works out.
Posted 29 July 2004 - 02:00 AM
Hey thanks very much guys, I appreciate the advice. I have tried so many versions of this bait that I set it aside for now, just can't seem to get it to work with the Etex, have no idea why. The bait swims like a dream with no finish, with it the swim is gone! Strange.
Posted 29 July 2004 - 05:22 PM
Here is what I do. Yes it is true that wood will differ even in the same board. But if will be less if you try to pick out straight grain boards. Trust this will make a difference.Once I get to the wieighting process I work on 1 bait to see how many additional holes I need in the bait.Then I drill that many holes in all the remaining baits.I work on maybe 50 to 100 at a time.Fill all the holes with lead before you try the baits in a tank.When you take the baits out of the tank dry them off with a towel. Let the baits dry overnight and try again the next day. Let dry again overnight before filling the holes. I know this seems like it may take a little longer but it has cut my frustration by 90%.It works. All wood soaks up water with the exception of cedar. It does some but not as bad as the rest.
Also have you had any trouble with paint sticking to the Mahogany? When I have made woodworking projects with Mahogany I have always wiped the wood down with Acetone to remove surface oils. It will not glue up if you don't.I will answer your emails tommorrow. Am at work.
Posted 29 July 2004 - 06:55 PM
I haven't had any problems with the mahogany, the easiest wood I have found to work with. I like your idea of letting the baits dry and then rechecking them. I will add tho that since I had that problem I have randomly checked a few baits with the mahogany and found no hassles at all in this regard. Poplar was giving me the biggest problem of all.
You know I was reading through the suggestions on this thread again and think Corey brings up a good point. I wonder if I wasn't adding buoyancy to the bait with the filler.
Posted 29 July 2004 - 08:34 PM
I do not think you should see any difference from the filler unless you are adding a large amount to the bait. Also I think the heavier he bait is(sinks faster) the less effect the filler would have. Have you ever tried Maple for your baits? It is harder than the Mahogany(I think) and not to bad on your router bits. The only problem I had with Baswood was that when you run it through the router one side will kind of fuzz up and the other will be smooth. Do you have a good supplier for the Mahogany? It is not easily found in my neck of the woods. Neither is the Cedar. Might explain why I use Maple so much. Another reason is I have a nephew who works at a lumber mill and gets me the ends from time to time for free. Both Maple and Basswood.Only problem is I have to wait about a year and a half for it to dry out good. Even then I put it in the oven at lowest heat setting for about an hour before I use it. But hey, its free.
I use the larger hole you spoke about in the email because I drill holes into the large hole from both ends of the bait. This is how my wire goes in to the bait.If you want to check out some of my baits,go the Muskie Inc/ Chapter 9 and look in baitmakers section for Smuttly Dog baits.
Posted 29 July 2004 - 09:34 PM
Any trapped air pockets could be a wild card also.
Screw eyes are a great place for air and or water to get in to.
Posted 29 July 2004 - 09:49 PM
Do you make the Smuttly? I have never seen one of these baits before but have read some very good things about them from anglers at Muskiefirst.
Posted 29 July 2004 - 11:01 PM
Yes , the Smuttly is my bait. I name it differently by the size of them. The 6",7" & 8" are Smuttly Dogs. The 10" is a Smuttly Wolf. The 4" are Pups.12" are the "Big "N" named after my deceased brother Neil. This baitmaking is frustating at times but it is also one of the most addictive things I have ever done. Just wish I hadn't waited until I was 40 to start. I too am reading some good things about your baits.
Posted 30 July 2004 - 12:42 AM
You are a good distance ahead of me in the bait-building business. Like you, I also got a late start and have much to learn. Have been building various baits for 20 years but only within the last year or so have I been bulding hardbaits. Nearly all that I have learned has come from those willing to share at this site. With the exception of myself, there are some very good people on this board. I am glad you are here, I'm sure there is much that I and others can learn from you.
I should mention to you also that when guys were talking about your baits at Muskiefirst I thought it admirable of you to mention Jack Cobb as being instrumental in helping you develop the skills you have. I have heard many good things about Jack and hope to speak to him someday.