Jdeee Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Ray I don't think Millsite created the river runt body just the lip design. Heddon made the Go deeper with this type of lip starting in 1949. Millsite was making them years before that and stopped in the 50's. Many lawsuits were filed back and forth between the two companies LOL things never change. Copy redesign copy it's the nature of the beast, but that's what makes lures evolve over time. Good for the fisherman, bad for the manufacturer. Dave When it swims it's angle is a little more than 45 degrees. Wish I had a tank to show the action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 I hate to say this Jdeee, I still have a river runt. It's in a old box somewhere. V-man, I never waste anything, this includes any errors on my part or others. I just store them away for future use. I truly believe that this design can work. I'm not as confident in the depth. I will maul them until I can't use them anymore to see if I can't get it to work. I have three with tie hangers at different location. I believe the lip needs to stay at the length I have it, to be successful. Now this was/is my thought about moving the tie hanger further away from the nose of the bait. The pull of the cranking in will bring the y plane more towards 90% (or the x plane). I don't believe it will take much. I believe it would be more towards what Jbeee was stating, about a 45% or so. I also want it to rise slowly, just enough to have a chance to get out of structure. I'm setting here hoping what I am think is right. Maybe I should not have replied...oh well that's not a first. Lol Dale 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgecrusher Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 I'm not a hardbait expert, but if you are serious in looking at depth baits, check out a wide range of Australia lures made for cod, they generally are large very deep divers, could be a good basis! Oargees, Australian Crafted are a couple of examples that could be used. Will give an idea, some use lead in the lip as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jdeee Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 (edited) Dam those Aussie lures are more lip than lure. I think they should attach hooks on the lips also : )))) Not sure if most North American fish could get their mouths around those ???? Edited October 15, 2015 by Jdeee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jdeee Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 (edited) It is interesting how far ahead the tow line loop is placed. Be fun to tie one on to see the action. Edited October 15, 2015 by Jdeee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 (edited) Edgecrusher, someone lost their shovel. I took a hard look at them, well the best I can. Thanks for the info of the site. What I was interested in was the body shape to help push the lip down. The next of course was the size of the shovel in front. The last was the wire running through the bait and how it's attached to the bill. It appears to be braise together at the tow point. The body style I have seen before and a good size lip, but the wire is just professionally done and how far out from the bait it is. Yepper Jdeee the bait would be fun to bring in and to fell the action. I got out early today (snuck away) and took the baits to a 10' deep pool. I met a person there and the person got in the water while I cranked the divers in. He said they were digging into the bottom and going left to right as they bumped the bottom. Both went down fast and was described as a hound dog tracking a hot trail. The rise of the bait was about what I wanted. About a foot every 2-3 seconds. The river is next. At this point I think I should thank the ones who have give me advice. With out this I don't think that I would be where I am with out your advice. Thank you; Dale Edited October 15, 2015 by DaleSW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clemmy Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 (edited) Dieter's book post; Encyclopedia of Lures by Frank Prokop would help you alot with those various deep diving Murray Cod lures from down under. Being an Australian book, about a third of the tested lures were Australian, many were at the time handmade and now very pricey. Be aware that the Aus version has over a thousand lures tested, the wordwide version about half that. His early results were first published in a book call Lures in Depth, but the Encyclopedia has more info. To measure, he used something we would all love: a universitie's flume tank for studying trawling nets, etc. Another book is Precision Trolling (also a casting one) by Mark Romanack. It used sunk posts marked for depth, and trolled past using divers as observers. It also has guidelines on amount of line out and line diameter. Perhaps some of our Finnish members could tell us more about the stepped lip design. They are the real experts on this, but I have a hard time with Google translate on their forum.. Edited October 15, 2015 by clemmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edgecrusher Posted October 16, 2015 Report Share Posted October 16, 2015 It is interesting how far ahead the tow line loop is placed. Be fun to tie one on to see the action. Generally a pretty wide action, we have some serious sized fish here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jdeee Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 You call that a lip Mate... Now this is a lip!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted October 17, 2015 Report Share Posted October 17, 2015 (edited) That would scare the heck out of a fish. Look's like some kinda of a speed boat. Very nice paint job. Lost one of prototype this morning at 22'. The concave lip did ok, I need to work on it a little I think, but still good for shallower water 10-15'. If back and forth is "hunting" then its good for that to. I usually do this with the rod that I'm using. I believe this is because of the way I bowed them while heating them. The fins (side of the lip) are just off line a little. I may have something here. Now I have 7 prototypes to start making and painting. This part I already have down. I won't bother the heck out of y'all for a while. Maybe I can help a little now. Take Care Dale Edited October 17, 2015 by DaleSW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncustered Posted October 27, 2015 Report Share Posted October 27, 2015 Dave, I love reading a literate argument from an knowledgeable author... Your writing so clearly defines what your saying I can picture the concept as I read. Y'all are making this country boy alot smarter. Thanks!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted October 27, 2015 Report Share Posted October 27, 2015 Uncustered - thanks for the nice words and happy that you enjoy my posts. I am most definitely in learning mode, a lot of thoughts, arguments and theory. I don't post an idea unless I believe it, but I am entitled to change my mind, should I or anyone else prove the idea incorrect. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 My uneducated guess: Theres not much lip in front of that line tie, but the tow point is below the x-axis of the bait... Maybe this gives the line more leverage against the water I think it's a combination of the low eye tie, but with the shallow angle of the lip, like a deep diver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
