64 replies to this topic
Posted 25 August 2004 - 12:06 PM
hey all! Great thread by the way.
I took TM's advice and bought an older bagley's with the brass lead line tie on ebay. I really like this lure. It's pretty beat up but it only cost me two bucks. I'm debating as to whether or not I want to re-finish it or just leave it alone. The paint on the lure is cracked in some places and the portion by the back hook hanger is devoid of paint and the wood is split. Also, there are several puncture marks on the top and sides of the lure.
Should I leave the lure alone or re-finish it? And if so, what's the best way to re-do this lure?
Posted 25 August 2004 - 08:04 PM
I have had a few norman shallow baby little n's that are cheap, these were the old modles 80's. I lost both of the ones I fished but still have many. These seemed to hunt well (although it never seem to matter much to me) I have a bunch that are old and need to be re-painted. They may hunt, who knows? I will send you one and you can re-paint it and give it a whirl.
Posted 25 August 2004 - 08:25 PM
I would appreciate that. To tell you the truth, I don't know why I am so hung up on this hunting thing either. But, there has to be something unique about those type of baits. They have to have their own special wobble and that might really be the key and not so much that the bait darts to one side or the other that makes fish attracted to them. Then again, I could be all wet, but it certainly is a challenge to figure out.
Man, you must have one heck of a collection of baits.
Posted 25 August 2004 - 09:55 PM
Personally I would refinish the lure. You could probably get 15 - 20 bucks for it on ebay. But since you have those blemishes then you may not. I have seen some pretty beat up ones go for that much though. But I would refinish it and fish it. How much do you want to referbish the lure? Just so it could fish or completely to make it pretty again too?
Posted 25 August 2004 - 10:05 PM
I don't really mess with the lures but jrfan8 can make the lure new again for 9 bucks I think. Check out his site under what we do http://www.hustlerlures.com. I have a few of his lures I got from a friend, very nice!! I am going to be sending a handfull of baits over to him to get re-finised soon aswell. And by the way you did real good getting a all brass ofr 2 bucks usally even in horrible condition they can reach 15+
Posted 26 August 2004 - 09:34 AM
below are a few pics of the lure i bought on ebay:
Skeeter: I'm thinking that I would like to completely refinish this lure and get it close to it's original paint job. I guess that would mean that I woud need to strip it down to the bare wood?? I'm thinking that I would first take pics of the lure for reference and then try to copy the paint. what would you suggest?
Tm: thanks again for the advice. I think it would be challenging to refinish this lure myself. Bring a beat up lure back to life is truly a satisfying experience. here's one I refinished. found it on a small lake. most of the paint was completely off except for two spots which I used as a reference to get it close to it's original color scheme.
Posted 26 August 2004 - 09:35 AM
Since we are on the subject of the hunting action, let me tell you why I am trying to make my own flat crankbaits. 2 years ago I purchased 3 Dbait crankbaits from Mr. Dee's, this was in the winter time so he sent a note with the baits saying that these bait were not tuned do to ice on the water. When spring arrived I tuned the baits and one of the bait had an unbelievable hunting action, it would run straight then swing left or right maybe 6 inches (staying vertical the whole time), it might stay there for 1 to 5 seconds then swing to center then to the other side, it was very random. (I beleive that I would not of got this one bait if he would of tuned them). I'm telling you the fish tore this bait up. I repaired this bait so many times now there is nothing left to repair so I disected it. I have purchased quit a few more and have never had another one do it this much (move this far side to side). So this is why I am so interested in the topcoat finish that he uses, I think that the fact that his topcoat is very thin and light might be an advantage in this action. Then again I might be are wrong.
Posted 26 August 2004 - 10:32 AM
MP, the top coat has nothing to do with that hunting action. In my limited experience that hunting action is a fluke. I have a D bait copy made out of cedar ( my very first bait ) and it tracks like yours and caught a lot of fish. But I haven't been able to get another bait to track like that one. I gave up on the hunting action and try to get my baits to run stright back to the rod tip. After searching TU on hunting action, from the guru's posts
I gather they don't want their baits moving off of center.
Posted 26 August 2004 - 12:44 PM
Bad news, the baits I am talking about are the square lips. It would be a complete waste of time to re-finish the pictured lure if you are planing on fishing it unless you replace the lip. The lips on these older DB's are all very brittle and will break almost imediatley when the hit the bottom when cranking, belive me I ruined several lures fishing them. I would strongly suggest replacing the lip with lexan of some other strong material because the lip on there is doomed to a quick death. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but it's best to hear this before you invest lots of time into the bait.
Also some of you guys's will be happy to know I found some great hunting crankbaits, noe the bad news I have no clue what brand they are or who made them. I looked through all of my wood cranks last night and took some of them with me fishing today. The 4 pictured turned out to be the jack pot! These little baits hunt very well the deep diver may throw off as much as 6'' to each side and the shallow get about 2'' mabey 3'' the only down side to these baits is they are too small to cast on a bait caster I got them off of ebay in a lot of tackle and had not used them untill today I belive they are hand made, very nice job and thanks to whoever made them Does anyone know what kind these are I would be interested in buying some larger ones. They are made of balsa and have brass wire hand shaped lips and foiled bodies.
Posted 27 August 2004 - 01:58 AM
There are two ways to go here. You can either just reclearcoat the lure and fish it or completely repaint the lure. I would not replace the lip in it since it is the weighted lip. I really don't know how you would get the lead into a new lip to stay. The lead in the lip keeps the lure at the digging angle throughout the retrieve. Most belly weighted lures just belly out and run flat when they hit bottom. The lead keeps this from happening. The only other way to do this is to chest weight the bait. Unless you know how to properly chest weight then I would keep the original lip in place. If it does break then worry about it then. I would just sand the bait smooth. You don't have to strip it bare unless you want to. undercoat it, paint it, clearcoat it, and fish it. You did a fine job on the other one. Bagley baits are weighted light. They can handle the extra clearcoat just fine. They will still have a great action.
Posted 27 August 2004 - 08:58 AM
Thank you very much for the advice. I agree with you on leaving the lip on. It does seem filmsy but at the same time it seems that it has taken some abuse and still remains intact. I'm wondering if a thin coat of devcon over the lip would help reinforce it?? If I did this, would I need to lightly sand the lip?? Also, how would the weight on the lip effect the lure if i were to modify the lip and make it square? I guess I'm trying for that "hunting" effect! Or should I just leave it as is? The more I think about the lure the more possibilities for modifications/improvements Plaster of Paris into my head
Posted 27 August 2004 - 11:15 AM
If you are going to take the time to re-finish the whole lure it would be dumb not to re-place the lip if you have fished DB3's befor you know how hard the pull and smack into the bottom. It is very easy to just take the lip out and trace a pattern on lexan and cut a new one you can drill a whole for the lead and you'll be in goo shape. If you wait to do till till after you paint it chances are it will take some paint off when you remove it. As for putting a square lip on it wont work because the lip slot is in teh wrong possion. And DB3's don't hunt you need to get a shallow diver a BB I have had at lease 50 DB's and never has one hunted. teh only way you can get around re-placing the lip is if you are going to fish it so it does not hit the bottom or where the bottom is soft like mud of sand otherwards it will break trust me.
Posted 27 August 2004 - 07:38 PM
The lip can be replace and reweighted. IMO like I said before granted those lips do break easily they are more I guess you would say flimsy and cause the lure to run a little differently than if I replaced the lip with a new one that had the weight in it. But over all you may not even notice the difference if you were not used to fishing the old lead lips.
Posted 27 August 2004 - 10:33 PM
Don't modify the lip by cutting it. Just leave it or change it out. If you have ideas then get some balsa and make your own. Does anyone know of a way to remove the lip out of one of these lures without cutting? I know that for the past 20 years they have used hot glue to put in the lips. Did they do that in the earlier ones also? How can you get the lip out cleanly?
Posted 27 August 2004 - 10:58 PM
This is what I do. I cut the lip off flush with the bait. Then take a hack saw blade that is thinner then the lip and start cutting(by hand) into the lip material. When you get to the back of the lip slot stop. The next part is the tricky part take an exacto knife and heat up the blade and clear out the remaining lip pieces. When you have the majority of the lip pieces out I soak the whole bait in Laquer thinner. In about 2 hours all of the remaing glue and lip plastic have softened .Clean the slot out again Let the bait dry for 24 hours, then Cut ya a new lip glue it in. Seal the bait, prime ,paint, clearcoat, and you are back in business!! It is a time consuming job but to me those old Bagleys are the boss!!!
Posted 28 August 2004 - 07:17 AM
If you're going to refinish the lure you could microwave it for a couple of seconds, this would melt the hot glue and you should be able to wiggle the lip out. I had a couple of poes I did this to. I'm not sure if it would cause a problem with the lead though, it didnt seem to bother the poes. Good luck and be SAFE, if you do microwave it dont stand directly in front of the microwave it could explode if there's a lot of moisture in it.
Posted 30 August 2004 - 08:28 AM
thanks guys for all of the great advice. I've decided to leave the lip in the lure and just reinforce it with a thin layer of devcon.
TM, I hear what you're saying and I certainly agree with you but I wanted some of the original pieces on the lure to maintain some of it's originality. I still haven't decided if I will fish the lure once it's complete.
Posted 30 August 2004 - 12:43 PM
I am not trying to give you a hard time or anything, I just know you would be bummed if the first tme you fished it the lip broke Hopefully the devcon will work if it does let me know I have a few I would'nt mind fishing Good luck, post a pic when your done.
Posted 30 August 2004 - 05:19 PM
Those old brass hanger Bagleys DB3 are special, but if the the lip is broken or stressed. without a doubt I would turn it into a BB3 with a few easy modifications.
I think the action and qualities of the shallow running square lipped BB3 is much more sought after than the DB3 so I started going monster garage on my Bagley brass DBs that were no longer fishable in their deep diving form. Dont do this to collectible or good quality vintage DB's.
First off I am talking about first generation Bagley balsa Bs, they have all brass hangers and the best ones are the early ones with fatter chunky body style and urathane coating (usually develope age lines)
When I started modifying them, I would spend much time removing the old broken deep lip and filling slot, but found a quicker way that doesnt hurt the action what so ever of the shallow runner, and I even prefer to retain the original finish even if battle scarred and requiring a little epoxy sealing here and there.. Yes you can strip the whole thing down and completely refinish it, but for some reason it just loses a little of the Bagley magic when you do that. I even try to avoid completely re-sealing the topcoat as it adds weight and I want the lure to be as close to the fish killer it was in the 70's.
As stated above, this proceedure produces a BB3 with a good chance at a hunting bait, but it wont be pretty. Again, I think action speaks louder than pretty finish. use a dremel or file and score and cut away the remaining deep diving lip off nose of DB, be careful to leave brass line tie intact. bend hanger down out of way and file the remaing lip flush with nose. cut off lead pill with a sidecutter and cut one end of the two strands of brass hanger as close to nose of bait as possible. straighten brass wire out and shorten brass wire to approx an inch and a half leaving the one end attached yet. then bend / double back the end of the brass over itself about an 1/8 of an inch on end. drill a small hole just below the old hanger deep enough to accept the inch of wire. mix epoxy and fill hole with epoxy using paper clip or thin wire. then using needle nose feed brass into hole and re-shape new bend for line attachment. brass bends easily and can be made rounder after epoxy dries, just leave enough to work with to make good loop about the same size as hook attachments. (original BBs had the line tine just below the tip of nose of bait, not on the nose, so going below the old lip and then bending a smooth loop will get you right where you need to be) use extra epoxy mixed to lightly seal old lip/ nose area and any other dings in bait, especially around old hook hangers. Now cut a new lip out of thin lexan (about 5/64 thick). original lip is 1 inch by 1 1/8 inch by 5/8 inch. original lip slot was cut at a 50 degree angle from centerline of bait 3/8 inch below line tie entry point. lip angle is critical, if you can make a jig to hold lure and use bandsaw with guide to get it perfect. Depth of lip is 5/16. lightly round radius of leading corners of cut lip and glue in place.
I have a box of these little monsters and they fish every bit as well as a original brass BB3 which are now all hanging up for display.
Pics below, hope I explained the operation well enough to make sense...