Weighting Gliders And Jerks

[musky69]

I have been making some musky jerkbaits and gliders.  I make from 6 to 8 inch baits.  Can anyone help with any info on how to get a bait to wobble on the fall?  I have had good luck with weighting the rounder baits to get them to wobble but, not so much with the more flatter side baits.  The baits work well as far as side to side and sink rate, but I would like to get them to wobble/flutter when I pause them.   Thanks guys

Edited October 9, 2015 by musky69

[JRammit]

I wouldnt think weighting has anything to do with this... Id think its more about how the water interacts with the body shape

If your rounder bait wobbles on the fall but your flat bait doesnt, that tells the story

This probably doesnt help, but form follows function, not the other way around

[RayburnGuy]

There are some threads about the spybait and how it's body shape induces the action your talking about. Doing a search in the archives for "spybait" might answer your questions.

 

Ben

[diemai]

I tend to agree to JRammit , this body quiver on the descend rather has to do with the lure body's shape and cross section profile rather than with weight placement .

 

Some two years ago one guy on a local webside asked me to make some so-called "seatrout-wobblers"(great lures all around the Baltic Sea) for him ,...these do look like small glidebaits but are cast into the surf and steadily retrieved , occassionally paused to drop back down .

 

This guy especially demanded such a quiver of body on the drop to have the flanks of the bait flash , ....never did such before , but hit it right away .

 

The body shape was a slender minnow with flat sides , body outlines rounded off to a full radius , no taper of forward and rear body .

 

The ballast was lead sheet passing all the way down the length of the lurebody , glued in together with an internal wire form(line tie eye and rear hook eye , no belly eye) into a belly slot to achieve a sink rate of about 1 1/2 feet per second ,maybe even a little more .

 

BUT , ......this way of ballast placement(all the way through) would never work for a well performing glidebait , .......on such lures the ballast requires to be CONCENTRATED at only one or two locations at the belly length(wether one or two ballast holes depends on the shape of lurebody ,...most likely it's two ballast points , anyway).

 

Last year I've made three glidebaits sporting this belly quiver on the descend as well , ....my goal of design was to create a bait , that sinks fast(a tad more than 1 foot per second) and that can be worked through the reel handle alone , no jerks of the rod tip neccessary ,......I wanted a winter bait , sinking to the bottom real fast and sporting not too exaggerated sideward darting movements .

 

Body shape is a simple kinda symetric willowleaf , similar to a spinnerblade of same name , but a tad higher and the widest point of it's height placed a tad towards the nose of the bait .

 

Sides are flat , no nose -, or tail taper and again all body outlines rounded to a full radius .

 

Line tie and rear hook hanger screw eyes are lead pointing upward as much as possible to gain space underneath for the belly ballast holes fore and aft , placed as much towards the body ends as possible , .......the lures are trimmed to sink horizontally .

 

I've never gotten deeper into into this topic of body quiver on descend ,but I guess , that it requires a flat sided baid of not too much height , at least not over a longer portion of the body , .......but I reckon , that a cross section fatter at the belly than the back might work as well or maybe even better ?????

 

Greetz , Dieter 

Edited October 10, 2015 by diemai

[Vodkaman]

I too like JR's take on the fall wobble. Also, great, unselfish input from Dieter and the work he did on the subject.

 

My take on the falling wobble was touched on by Dieter, and that is the fall rate.

 

What causes the wobble? It is no different to what causes the wobble/wiggle at the front end; the generation of vortices. Google 'Karman vortex street' or 'vortex shedding' and have a look at the pictures if you don't want to read technical jargon.

 

My point is, that there is a minimum velocity that vortex shedding occurs. In scientific terms; for a circular body, shedding starts at a Reynolds number of 47 to 49. Of course, as mere mortals, this number is meaningless to us. It is also dependent on the shape of the body. So with each and every body, this minimum fall rate is most likely to differ. BUT, just knowing that there is a minimum fall rate to cause shedding, regardless of the body shape, means that we can search for the fall rate during the prototype stage, to find the ballast required to cause the wobble.

 

The shape of the belly, be it round, flat or even convex, WILL make a difference to the minimum speed. Unfortunately, I was unable to find figures for the minimum Reynolds number for a flat plate.

 

Earth quake hit as I was writing this. Could this be a eureka moment

 

Not proven, but makes sense to me, I believe that a flat belly, even better a concave belly, will give a lower fall rate for wobble. I will add it to my list of things to experiment with in the future. Now wishing I had written this list down. I will likely have to make a special drop tank with a Lexan side plate for viewing and timing.

 

In the mean time, I suggest taping lead until the wobble starts in a bucket test.

 

Dave

[bass100]

I make all of my glide baits wobble and it is fairly easy to do. 

 

1)  Make sure that the top of your bait is wider than the bottom of your bait.  The more bouyant your material the less wider the back has to be.  If you are doing large baits then you do not have to do this because all of the bouyancy is at the top but if you still make it a bit wider at the top it will wobble even more.

 

2)  Make sure all of your weight is below the center line and as low in the bait as you can get it.

 

3)  The more horizontal the bait sinks the better the wobble.

 

You are making the bouyancy at the top of the bait fight against the weight in the bottom of the bait.  These simple rules allow me to make all my glide baits wobble.

[musky69]

I hope there is a happy median.  One post I read said, put the weight above the center line to get the wobble effect. The baits I have been making have the weight below the center line.  They run fine but no wobble in the fall.  I guess I am going to try more trial runs to see if I can get them right.

[mark poulson]

I have been able to achieve wobble on the fall in both spy baits and glide baits by drilling the holes for my lead wire ballast up from the belly to well above the center line of the bait, drawn from front hook hanger to center of tail.

I figure out how much ballast I need to get both sections of the glide bait to fall at exactly the same rate, spread it so the two sections fall horizontal, and then push the lead wire up so approx. 1/3 of the ballast is above the centerline, I get the baits to wobble on the fall.

I've found that having the ballast higher on any bait makes it more unstable, and 1/3 seems to be the magic number for me, allowing wobble but no overturning.

I think that the flatter bottom of my baits creates more water resistance on the fall, and initiates a tipping motion as it sheds water, which the bait's ballast tries to overcome, so the bait wobbles side to side as the shed/stabilize/shed cycle is repeated on the fall.

[Vodkaman]

Mark - excellent post. Thanks for the feedback on the flat bottom, that is encouraging.

 

Dave

[mark poulson]

Dave, I do ease the edges, so there are no square edges.

[Vodkaman]

Mark - the fact that the belly has some flat will have an effect.

 

When I am trying to predict an effect, I look at the two extremes; a round body and a flat plate body. Your flat belly with rounded corners is between the two extremes, so the effect will be between the two results.

 

Example:

 

drop a ball bearing into a bucket of water - it sinks in a straight line.

 

Drop a coin into a bucket of water and it shimmies all the way down.

 

Any metal form between the two will shimmy to various degrees between the two extreme results.

 

Dave

[diemai]

...hhmmmhh , .....seems,  like this is getting somewhat controversial , ......but yet very interesting .

 

Greetz , Dieter

[musky69]

So which will it be, below the line or above the line?  50/50 Lol.

[Musky Glenn]

I can't add any thing technical to this discussion, but I can give an example of a lure that does have this shimmy action. The "Hell Hound" is approx 8inches long, has flat sides and rounded top and bottom. It sinks at rest (with shimmy) By it sinking top side up, I would guess that the weighting is below center line or I would think it would turn up side down. There is a very good chance that I am wrong. Musky Glenn

[Seeking 56]

The way I see it, the closer the ballast (presumably lead) is to bottom of the bait, the least resistance to bouyancy it develops.

 

Whereas, the higher the ballast is up in the bait the more resistance it will incur by the filler used to cover it.  The filler (ie: wood epoxy) will obviously be lighter than the ballast and therefore should create more bouyancy which should cause a resistance thus creating a shimmering / wobble effect as it drops.

 

This is my explanation based on visualization only.  Altough I designed my gliders to suspend, the route I would try for a shimmering / wobble effect would be as mentioned above.

[bass100]

I posted pictures of some of the baits that I make wobble.  I also make all my 2 and 3 piece fast sink swimbaits wobble but I am not able to get the 4 piece swimbaits to wobble.

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/media/gallery/category_8/gallery_16753_8_191927.jpg

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/media/gallery/category_8/gallery_16753_8_59362.jpg

(the 3 piece baits wobble the 4 piece do not)

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/media/gallery/category_8/gallery_16753_8_341362.jpg

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/media/gallery/category_8/gallery_16753_8_171229.jpg

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/media/gallery/category_8/gallery_16753_8_398982.jpg

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/media/gallery/category_8/gallery_16753_8_353825.jpg

[Vodkaman]

Was the sink rate of the 4-piece slower?

 

Dave

[bass100]

Was the sink rate of the 4-piece slower?

 

Dave

No.  I tried many sink rates on the 4 piece to get the wobble.  I believe the problem is the tail piece, as it is held together by one hinge which makes it uncontrollable and therefore negates the wobble and it is unweighted.

[Vodkaman]

Yes, could be. I had swim problems with the single hinge, with the tail showing too much roll. All my future 4-pieces will have two hinges on all sections. It means a compromise on the side profile, to get the depth, but a much better solution.

 

Alternatively, re-think the hinge method. I have a 4" swimbait design with 5 sections and no twist problems. It is possible.

 

Dave

[spoonpluggergino]

I build many glide baits for muskie fishing, the flat sided glides with rounded top and belie with short radius router have the most flash and wobble, I also try to get my ballast closer to the center line and if I want more erratic action and more wobble I get part of the weight above the center line, but the center of the weight gravity still below the center line. I precast all my weights, so I know how long they are and the exact weight, hopefully this makes some sense, I can be confusing

Gino

[musky69]

Thanks for the info Gino.  I never thought too much about the wobble until I threw a bait last week similar to the one I make.  That bait had a wobble on the fall unlike mine.  I was more concerned with how my baits ran than whether they would wobble.  After my friend brought it to my attention when we were out on the water, I thought I would try to get some wobble in my baits.

[Vodkaman]

For fall wobble, the mid-ballast does make a lot of sense, making it easier for the bait to turn. As long as there is enough to hold the lure vertical.

 

As for my minimum sink rate theory, well no one is buying that, but that's OK, it is after all just a theory and it is up to me to prove it one way or the other. I have a set of experiments planned, for both fall rate and belly shape, but it is going to be a while before I can do the tests due to current commitments. I will report back on my findings whether I was right or wrong.

 

Dave

[UKandy]

On 10/12/2015 at 2:12 AM, Vodkaman said:

For fall wobble, the mid-ballast does make a lot of sense, making it easier for the bait to turn. As long as there is enough to hold the lure vertical.

 

As for my minimum sink rate theory, well no one is buying that, but that's OK, it is after all just a theory and it is up to me to prove it one way or the other. I have a set of experiments planned, for both fall rate and belly shape, but it is going to be a while before I can do the tests due to current commitments. I will report back on my findings whether I was right or wrong.

 

Dave

Did you ever complete the tests Dave?

Andy.

[Vodkaman]

40 minutes ago, UKandy said:

Did you ever complete the tests Dave?

Unfortunately no. That was around the time I was evicted and lost everything.

My thinking hasn't changed much; I still think that cross section shape is important and fall rate is key. There is a minimum speed for those vortices to become regular but not necessary for at least some movement to be visible.

The video below shows the whole story and makes things very clear. The minimum speed is dependent on the shape, but anything much greater than 4" to 6" per second should produce the desired effect. A wider body with a flatter belly should produce better effects.

Dave

 

[UKandy]

17 hours ago, Vodkaman said:

Unfortunately no. That was around the time I was evicted and lost everything.

My thinking hasn't changed much; I still think that cross section shape is important and fall rate is key. There is a minimum speed for those vortices to become regular but not necessary for at least some movement to be visible.

The video below shows the whole story and makes things very clear. The minimum speed is dependent on the shape, but anything much greater than 4" to 6" per second should produce the desired effect. A wider body with a flatter belly should produce better effects.

Dave

 

Interesting video that Dave  nice & clear to follow, so it could be a trade off between the desired sink rate wanted in a bait or having a bait weighted correctly to achieve the fluttering down action.

Andy.