JRammit Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 Ive had this Shimano reel for 5 or 6 years... Not sure how these got here, but there are 2 deep groves on the bail in front of the roller I lost 2 fish today because of these groves (one of them felt hefty!)... I think the line is riding in the first grove instead of on the roller... Once the line is under tension, it p o p s into the second groove and then p o p s again onto the roller I found a replacement bail for $20 after shipping... But this was only a $40 reel Is there an ez fix for this?... Or do i get to buy a new reel?? (Have to tell the wife i tried Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 I have stared at your pic for some time, trying to figure out how those grooves were formed. Obviously from line wear, but I cannot figure out how the line could be under tension and not be caught in the roller. The action of turning the handle would immediately force the line into the roller. The only explanation that I can come up with, is that you are 'back pedaling' when playing the larger fish. This could cause the line to jump out of the roller and be carried by the bail arm. It is never a good idea to back wind with these reels, best to adjust the drag to let line out when required. I suggest that you do some test casts, observing the line, checking that it is always carried in the roller. Then fix the end of the line to a post and back wind under tension and see if the line pops out into the problem grooves. If I am right, then you may be able to make a simple repair with tape and epoxy, PROVIDING that you modify your technique and use the drag. The reel should have a switch to prevent back winding, I suggest you use it while you change your technique which will take some time, old habits die hard. I also notice a slight blemish on the spool, just behind the grooves. Again, I cannot find an explanation under normal use, were the line would be forced over the rim, in one place and under load. The only time that the line touches the rim should be during the cast. If the reciprocating spool dips too low, then the line could possibly touch the spool, but this would be a design fault. More likely that this blemish is unrelated. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted October 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Negative ghost rider.. My anti-reverse switch is ALWAYS on... Ive seen other people make that mistake and end up with a mess im glad wasnt mine!!! I cant figure the groves out either... As for the spool, that is likely due to abuse... Im rough on my equipment!.. Although i mainly boat fish now, a few years back i would trek to places most would never venture! This reel has banged off trees, rocks, slid down cliffs, fallen in creeks.. And all while in my hands.. Yet, i dont have any grooves... Go figure?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted October 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 My groove theory would be... This old reel has the spring just about worn out... Maybe the bail isn't closing all the way....... If it was partially open, then the area where the grooves are would be the highest point of the bail, causing the line to ride there instead of the roller These findings are leading to a new reel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 A plausible explanation, I will go with that. Message to wifey - definitely a new reel is required, balanced by a new pair of shoes of course Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Braided Line Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 As for the grooves. I`d get out my trusty Dremel tool . Using a burnishing attachment I`d work those grooves out. Done right, it should turn out ok. As you stated a bail cost $20. The reel only cost $40. Sounds like your not in buying a new bail. It`s only going to get worse. Give it a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted October 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Dremel was my first thought, but i was afraid of making it worse... I didnt think of using a polishing wheel, worth a shot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 I agree, grind 'em out and then polish. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 I agree with the Dremel, but disagree with the choice of attachments. I'd use an abrasive cut off wheel to finish it off. Then you can tell wifey "Look what I did trying to save a few dollars". (a big frown on your face would help sell it) Ben 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrav Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Is there an ez fix for this?... Or do i get to buy a new reel?? (Have to tell the wife i tried) New reel is the easiest fix and probably the longest lasting solution. The reel pictured is well worn and beaten, the bail arm/roller is likely shifting a bit while under tension and causing the change line position. Grinding properly would be rather difficult and would remove any slick finish to the metal if it exists. The actual wear might be somewhat due to the spring tension or even partially on the reel body where the roller assembly attaches. Hard to tell without disassembly. They don't last forever, man. If you're going to try, take off the screw to the bail assembly (near roller) and see if that is bent a bit allowing the tilt in roller. The gray plastic part which it fits into might be worn a bit on the top part (inside) which misaligns the roller. You won't regrind this part, it's a new reel solution. If it is simply a small washer or roller bushing replacement here, maybe you can do it. As for the spouse, ask her is she ever actually wore out a pair of shoes before needing more. Icy stare on the way, but it's one heck of a justification! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted October 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Ha!... I like it! She has a pair of shoes for every outfit, so why shouldn't i have a rod n reel for every lure!? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Ha!... I like it! She has a pair of shoes for every outfit, so why shouldn't i have a rod n reel for every lure!? Steady now, don't push it! Dave 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrav Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Just out of curiosity, I dug out an elder Shimano and took some pics of the roller/bail. More or less a given on you getting a new reel, but if we can figure out the likely cause of the grooving, it may save the next reel from such a fate. Could help others as well, the groove thing is not unheard of. Below is the first place I'd check, to see it the arm assembly is solid under tension. Sometimes screws loosen and allow play, it's a simple fix to avert damage. Next is a close-up of the roller housing The other side... The roller and bushing itself... Pretty cheesy plastic parts on even the Symmetries, doesn't take much grit and running fish to grind away enough material to upset the alignment. If you get curious, pull those parts and examine them to see if that's where the problem is on your reel. I never have a problem with grooving, but I cut my big fish teeth in sand country and am rather anal about keeping things lubed and clean. The roller should roll, if it doesn't, it'll groove. Assuming the rotor itself doesn't have much play or wear, if so that will shift the whole upper assembly under tension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 I don't know a lot about spinning reels, but could excessive wear be caused by closing the bail with the reel handle instead of doing it by hand? Seems like the bail slapping shut would cause increased wear over time. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted October 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Thanks jrav!.. I will check all that after work tonight and check back... Likely to find all these problems! Like i said, this rod n reel have been through alot!... Once it was even yanked out of the boat while night fishing for cats, disappeared into the darkness, and down to the bottom it went... I tried to snag it with my other pole for half an hour, no dice... Some time later, my uncle got hung in the brush, pulled in a wad of sticks with my line wrapped around it... The fish had broken off, but i was able to hand line my rod back into the boat Ben, thats a good point, but didnt happen in this case.. I always open and close manually Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted October 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Ok... There was some play in the bail, it was not closing fully, spring felt weak... All screws were nice and tight... The roller housing actually looks good... Roller bearing has some build up on it, but not too bad... Inside the roller is slightly groved (cant see in pic) And this part in the 3rd pic looks broken to me....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 (edited) That 3rd pic doesn't look right at all. It looks to me like the spring rod jams between the inner and outer, a prime candidate for wear, were the pin touches the outer. This would cause the pin to extend a little further on the close and also cause the pin to step out over the lip of the outer. whether this causes any problems, you will have to study the operation. This whole assembly could stand a tiny touch of graphite grease, including the pivot end under the cover plate (screw in pic). This looks like poor design to me. I think the original intention was for the end of the slot to limit the pin, NOT the inner and outer walls. Dave Edited October 14, 2015 by Vodkaman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrav Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 (edited) Good pics! It always helps to see this stuff. My Shimanos are a bit different and it was a little perplexing at first, but I flipped your pics and here's what I got. You have to insert the pin, then turn further to seat the stop block. Doesn't look too worn, the stuff in the third pic is odd looking but that's where it seats when open. Grungy, but looks OK structurally for it's purpose. Now, those parts marked should really be clean and slick, thus I echo Vodka's sentiments on the whole assembly looking rather needy of lube. Roller especially. If not, they'll malfunction as stated and shift the line over the roller track. Another thing I realized about my own reels is if the assembly screw is overtightened even a smidgen, the bail won't close to full stop. Looks good, but it still has a tiny bit to go and that would change the line path over the roller, right about where your grooving is. Careful with that screw, it's a "thread friction" setter and not a head setter. IOW, you can back it off a bit to set proper (less) friction. If the rig is dirty, it's much the same as an overtightened screw...won't close fully under spring tension. That might have been why the roller grooved, the bail assembly couldn't close fully and align properly with the grime. Doesn't take much to do it, in order to notice I had to push the bail to check for remaining travel. Never realized it, but my Symetre from the mid-90's looks similar to yours with 1 tension pin/spring. The newer models have 2 tension springs, I'm guessing partially to avoid the problem we are discussing while making a smoother bail operation. I learned something about my own stuff here. Regarding the "Jonah in the Belly of a Whale" aspect of the whole situation, I'd say this reel is to be retired on a wall much like a trophy catch. Good story to it and worthy of display. Edited October 14, 2015 by jrav 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrav Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 (edited) Inside the roller is slightly groved (cant see in pic) Kinda wondered that all along, but it doesn't look to terribly bad for line cutting. As for the bail grooves, you might have a bent bail given the incident with the reel. Even when it does seat, it can still be pretty off for line transfer to roller. Either one of these will groove if misaligned. Edited October 14, 2015 by jrav Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 (edited) Jrav - good post. If the rig is dirty, it's much the same as an overtightened screw...won't close fully under spring tension. That might have been why the roller grooved, the bail assembly couldn't close fully and align properly with the grime. Doesn't take much to do it, in order to notice I had to push the bail to check for remaining travel. This over tightening thing has been the same on every reel that I can remember owning. None of them were even close to top of the range. This is not the way that I would have designed the operation. The connection at the other side of the bail arm is fine on my cheepo reel, free running with the screw tight. This should be how it is both sides. The designers are using the screw tension to dampen the close operation. I would have found an internal method to dampen the 'slam shut' of the bail; rubber block or leaf spring or any number of methods. Basically, every reel manufacturer has copied the existing market hardware, instead of tackling the problems and coming up with new and better solutions. Dave Edited October 14, 2015 by Vodkaman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRammit Posted October 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Yes, thank you Jrav!... Ive learned a great deal here... Ive always just fished a reel til it wore out and bought a new one..... Here is my lesson, had i maintained this one propperly, i would likely have gotten a few more years out of it Ive decided to replace it with a fancy new baitcasting set up... This time ill keep the book and learn how to care for it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayburnGuy Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 Don't know about the longevity of spinning reels, but proper maintenance of baitcasters is paramount to the life of the reel. First baitcaster I ever owned was an Abu/Garcia that I purchased in my early teens. I learned to tear them down, clean/lube them and replace worn out parts and have been fishing them ever since. If you buy a quality baitcaster and give it proper care it will last you a lifetime. In my opinion it's a lot cheaper in the long run to spend the money up front and then give the reel the care it needs to last that lifetime. just my , Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrav Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 This over tightening thing has been the same on every reel that I can remember owning. None of them were even close to top of the range. Dave Yeah...and I think the only reason I don't have issue with bail arm hang-up/grooving or even the roller grooving is largely due to my lifelong habit of hand closing the bail. It's a quick move in which I close bail and pull the line into the roller, as natural as breathing anymore. If I handle clicked it, I'd think they all sucked by design. Something I noticed when playing with a few of my reels last night, especially the most used ones. Rayburnguy, I think the reason some of us get the years out of a reel is indeed maintenance, but it's also developing habits to circumvent the design flaws as mentioned above. Kinda strange, really...by not using the reel in the way intended it lasts longer. Hand closure appears to be one of those habits and it's true benefits shine in cold weather and chilly lube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Glenn Posted October 14, 2015 Report Share Posted October 14, 2015 In my experience working on these reels, the screws should be tight. I haven't seen a screw used in the bail that doesn't have a shoulder to bottom out against. The screw that holds the roller in place goes through a nylon piece that acts like a shoulder and reduces friction on the roller. I sure could be wrong. The binding usually is caused by the bail wire being bent from its original shape. This closing system has worked well, MOST OF THE TIME, for many years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrav Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 The screw that holds the roller in place goes through a nylon piece that acts like a shoulder and reduces friction on the roller. Yes, the roller screw is not the problem for the reason you describe. As long as it's clean and slick, it is always seated properly by the screw. It's the "other" screw we bemoan here, and they differ by reel in terms of exactly what tight is. Below is an older model Symetre and the screw in both open and closed positions. This kind seats dead on, never has over tightening or frictional problems with full bail closure. Darn good design and solid, though a bit of a task to work with given the inside position. The newer design in open and closed position with the stationary screw head on the outside. I think this causes some of the friction problems with full closure of bail. Though seatable in theory, if a bit too tight you get friction problems on some of the reels. Shouldn't be, but it functions like that sometimes hence my treating it as "adjustable" though not entirely sure about Shimano's opinion of it. I think it's largely due to the stationary screw head on the outside part. The tolerances are looser on the arm assembly, but that little head creates a lot more friction than one would think when "properly" seated. Don't get me wrong, I love the features of the newer Symetres, just hate the design of that one part. Some are worse than others there, but one should be able to tighten fully without undue friction problems. The older reels had the right design and very reliable closure with tight screws. Quick and cheaper to make now, but not necessarily better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
