Using Both A Snap And A Split Ring

[JimP]

JimP - I agree.

 

I am designing on CAD, as this allows me to rotate the model in real time and easily adjust the individual lengths, diameters etc. It also helps me visualize the tooling jig and helps visualize the construction operations. I can adjust all the elements to achieve the smallest possible design for that wire diameter. Really, the only real purpose of the cad model is to give me the distance between the two eye centers, for the jig.

 

The model below is for lure attachment and has a length of 11mm with 0.72mm SS wire.

q4.JPG

 

Dave

You might have something there. Am I correct that it takes a bit of force to open the loose end eyelet enough to insert the lure along with about three changes in direction to allow the lure to freely hang in the eyelet?  That looks good, great use of wire, one inch at a time.  I might try to hand make one and get back with you.

[Vodkaman]

JimP - wait a bit longer. The design has progressed a little more. The last image was V3, I have just finished V5. I have also designed the jig block.

 

Next job is to produce two manufacture models, showing the progression of the bends.

 

Unfortunately, with no workshop, I cannot try this out for you first.

 

Yes, a little force has to be applied to push the lure eye through. This prevents any chance of the lure slipping off. Also, any load applied will close the snap tighter, giving more security.

 

The V5 design allows the snap to be compressed/manipulated without wire ends sticking your thumb.

 

Dave

[JimP]

JimP - wait a bit longer. The design has progressed a little more. The last image was V3, I have just finished V5. I have also designed the jig block.

 

Next job is to produce two manufacture models, showing the progression of the bends.

 

Unfortunately, with no workshop, I cannot try this out for you first.

 

Yes, a little force has to be applied to push the lure eye through. This prevents any chance of the lure slipping off. Also, any load applied will close the snap tighter, giving more security.

 

The V5 design allows the snap to be compressed/manipulated without wire ends sticking your thumb.

 

Dave

I was able to produce a crude model.  Without the correct tooling I could not get the gap correct to allow an lure eyelet to pass between the wires.  I was using .024 stainless steel wire which is very close to your design.

Keep us posted, an interesting project.

[SW Lures]

@ V-Man

Very interesting as JimP stated. Please do keep us informed. As I stated earlier is that I do not use a snap swivels, but I do use split rings. The main reason why I don't use the snaps during actual fishing is because years ago the snaps were at best very weak. As you and I have talked about, your best catches is only going to be as good as your weakest link of your tackle. I need to quote that.

This leads me into another thought. I almost know that once your design is completed you will test the design. This information is what I would like to know. I also suggest a pull stress test and a sudden impact test as you and I have discussed in the past.

I have did the math since I did the last test, because I'm doing it again on other materials and techniques I'm looking at using. The math comes up to about 750 psi. of sudden impact. This maybe off some because I can't remember the number exactly. Once these test are completed I will post my findings in a new thread. The reason for my over engineering of baits is because of losing fish of such large sizes due to inferior materials. Many tears have ran down these cheeks.

Take Care

Dale

[Vodkaman]

DaleSW - good post. Yes, when I am set up to build a few of these, I plan on doing the tests that you mentioned:

 

There will be a 48 hour constant load test of 20Kg (44Lb). This is a severe test that My lures must pass. It is designed to test the pull-out strength of lure eyes and it does cause distortion of the eyes. Because the quick release snap is open ended and made of the same SS wire, my confidence in this test being passed is far from 100%, but I will find a steady pull figure that works.

 

The shock test will be new to me, but something that I have been planning to do in future. I will start with 1Kg dropped from a height of 1 metre. This will be an impact speed of 4.4m/s (10mph). Id does not sound like much until you drop a brick on your toe. The weight and/or the height will be increased to find the limit.

 

I will perform the same tests on shop bought snaps for comparison.

 

The design is complete. The length of the snap is comparable with shop bought, at 11mm length. It is going to be fiddly to make, but I think do-able. I have sent the design to JimP, who is going to have a go at a build. I would always prefer to do the test build myself, but I have no shop at the moment.

 

Dave

[CNC Molds N Stuff]

JimP,

I used the snap with the split ring because I was too lazy to remove the split rings first.

Snaps weigh next to nothing, but I'm thinking the additional pivot point by using both in line may act like a self-centering connection, and skew my testing.

I did catch a 3lb bass on one of my test casts, so maybe I should just shut up and use both all the time!  Hahaha

Seriously, the reason I don't fish with snap more is that I've found I retie less with a snap, so the knot gets a lot more stress.

Now that I've said that, I realized that I don't retie with a chatterbait until I've caught a good fish, so maybe I'm being overly cautious.

 

 

Depends on your line test.  I fish cranks mostly on 12lb, and on the rare occasions when I need the depth I'll fish on 10.  10 seems to be fragile to me these days so I retie quite often.  And 12 any time I tear it off a tree or catch a big fish.  I use snaps all the time, but for maybe a slightly different reason than most.  Years ago I discovered you will sometimes catch one or two fish of the deeper edge of a grass bed, and then you will have chasers, but no takers.  A quick change to the exact same bait in a different color or a different bait in the same color would produce a couple more.  By quickly swapping baits I could turn a two fish spot into a 10 fish spot.  I know some guys will say if that's happening you should have more than one crankbait bite on deck, but I've used as many as a dozen crank baits in a spot like that catching one or two fish on each one, and I've found it works best if they are still out and active.  If you take a few minutes to retie your three rods it takes a few minutes to get the fish going again. 

 

Specifically as to retying.  I try to school myself to retie as often as I would if I was tying directly.  

 

AND sometimes I don't use a clip.  I've found in clear water a spoon or an inline seems to get more bites without one.  Sad, because a snap and swivel would really save other problems on those baits.  

[BobP]

Mark, further to your original post, yes I think using a snap with a split ring does alter the performance of a bait, and sometimes significantly.  Like a lot of guys, I like to use something that allows me to change baits quickly without re-tying knots while fishing.  I usually remove the line tie split ring from commercial baits and use a quick-change alternative.  Crosslock snaps don't do it for me because they just won't fit on some baits, especially ones with cupped lips. What I settled on are the Norman Speed clips that are basically a small split ring with an extension that allows you to open them with finger pressure.  I like them because they are small, about 1/2" long, unobtrusive, and symmetrical.  And I've never had one break or slip off a crankbait.

 

I fish a lot of small bass crankbaits and how you connect to those can be really important to their performance.  That's not to say you'll never catch fish with a split ring plus a snap on the bait. I was throwing a new commercial crank for the first time that still had the split ring on and just used a Norman Speed clip.  It caught lots of fish like that and not so many when I removed the split ring.  That's just anecdotal testing but I put the split ring back on that bait and have happily used it that way ever since.  We must keep the Fishing Gods happy, even if it turns out to be just stupid superstition!  But my general rule is that you are better off if you choose a method that works for you and stick with it for consistency's sake.  That helps you make rational decisions about what works and what doesn't.  That said, I know that tiny little differences in a bait can be the difference in catching fish or just hauling water.  So I'm not above a little tweaking here and there to experiment.

[JBarlow]

Opps: Guys don't use the word "p o p" in your post. The software will convert it to "Plaster of Paris" as in line five of the original post.

To "Plaster of Paris" on a split ring is not a good idea.

 

I was wondering about the "Plaster of Paris"...LOL!

 

I have access to many different types of snaps and I use the Duo Snap. 

I almost always use a Duo Lock Snap when I go fishing. 

Small fish to 20Lb Pike I have never had a duo fail.

It lets me change lures all I want without having to re-tie.

If there is a split ring on the lure then I just leave it on and clip the snap to it.

It is difficult to tell a difference.

 

JB

Edited November 18, 2015 by JBarlow

[SW Lures]

I wonder if you hook up with a 30+ Striper in a fast (class 1-2 rapids) moving mountain river, just how well will they hold up. I also fish with light line compared to the fish size. We chase and wear them down. I believe in these conditions I will stay with a straight tie to a ring. For other species in different conditions, I may give them a try tho.

Dale

[mark poulson]

I posted the original question because I wanted to know if my lazy way of testing cranks by hooking a snap to the split ring already on the bait was giving me skewed results, not to advocate for using both when you're fishing.

I typically tie directly to the split ring when I'm fishing.

[Vodkaman]

This thread took several turns and diversions, for which I apologized for getting over enthusiastic with a line of thought.

 

To answer your original question from an engineering point of view, the snap on the end of the line provides the forward motion to the lure at a point contact and with such free movement that it cannot inhibit or affect the lure. Attaching the snap to a ring which already offers the above free movement, simply makes the movement even more free if that were possible.

 

The form of attachment that is considered the most effective, is tying direct and yet this is the most restrictive method of attachment.

 

The weight of the snap and ring has been mentioned, but again, they have no effect on the performance of the lure. The weight of the snap and ring is totally supported by the line when the lure is in motion and therefore has minimal effect on the lures action.

 

Dave

[diemai]

Mark, ...is your knot sitting tightly around the wire loop or you're using some sort of a fixed loop knot like the "Rapala Knot" ?

 

The latter was created to let the lure move absolutely freely , just like with being attached with a round bend snap like the DuoLock , ....otherwise I can only second to Dave's post above , ........greetings , Dieter

[SW Lures]

I most apologies also. However I was trying to state originally that a straight tie to a bait does hamper the movement. With a ring it will not in my opinion. Adding a snap it will hamper the action only in the weight (very little for what that is). This is where I left the question, I think they are a weak link. This is not scientific, just 50+ years of fishing and watching the reactions of baits.

Dale

[JRammit]

My take on the "freedom thing"... The limpness and flexibility of the line has to be significant vs the rigid metal of a clip.. Best with a Rapala knot as Dieter says

That being said, i use a snap when im lazy too... But most of the time i tie strait on

For testing, maybe tie a short leader to each bait the night before and change them out with a snap on the main line on the water

[mark poulson]

Again, I asked because I use a snap to water test multiple cranks, and it's easier than retying for each lure test.

[diemai]

Absolutely no difference in lure action if utilizing a Rapala knot OR a matching round bend snap like a DuoLock , ...snaps only get into the game when using micro lures less than 1 1 1/2" in length , I'd say , ...might not even be in terms of swimming action , but solely buoyancy issues .

 

Greetz , Dieter

[clemmy]

If you really wanted a quick way of tying on lures for testing purposes, why knot (pun intended) use something like the top of a drop shot swivel? Make an overhand knot at the end of the line, for security. Just have the drop shot keeper (you could really cut off the swivel part, but it might be easier to have something to hold) on your testing line about 5 inches up. Run end of line through split ring or clip or omega or wire loop, doesn't matter, whatever you would fish with. Then end of line back into the drop shot line keeper. The knot at the end will keep it from slipping out. NOT for fishing for any means, but a quick release way to test multiple baits without adding weight that may affect action if attatched to the lure. If you don't use a loop knot, just run the line twice through the split ring or whatever, and you won't get the effect of a loop knot.

Edited November 23, 2015 by clemmy

[mohawkman]

If you really wanted a quick way of tying on lures for testing purposes, why knot (pun intended) use something like the top of a drop shot swivel? Make an overhand knot at the end of the line, for security. Just have the drop shot keeper (you could really cut off the swivel part, but it might be easier to have something to hold) on your testing line about 5 inches up. Run end of line through split ring or clip or omega or wire loop, doesn't matter, whatever you would fish with. Then end of line back into the drop shot line keeper. The knot at the end will keep it from slipping out. NOT for fishing for any means, but a quick release way to test multiple baits without adding weight that may affect action if attatched to the lure. If you don't use a loop knot, just run the line twice through the split ring or whatever, and you won't get the effect of a loop knot.

Good idea! Wouldn't have thought of that. Perfect for my bath tub testing.

[CNC Molds N Stuff]

Be ok in the pool too.  Sadly I can't do any testing right now.  My pool is empty while they work on adding the hot tub.  I am so looking forward (I hope) to sitting in the hot tub on Christmas eve sipping a cranberry glug and ducking down to warm up. 

 

My wife actually got a prescription from here doctor for a hot tub.  We still have to pay for it of course, but its untaxed as a medical expense.  LOL.  Well, part of it anyway. 

[mark poulson]

Be ok in the pool too.  Sadly I can't do any testing right now.  My pool is empty while they work on adding the hot tub.  I am so looking forward (I hope) to sitting in the hot tub on Christmas eve sipping a cranberry glug and ducking down to warm up. 

 

My wife actually got a prescription from here doctor for a hot tub.  We still have to pay for it of course, but its untaxed as a medical expense.  LOL.  Well, part of it anyway. 

 

We expect a full report, along with pictures!

[Vodkaman]

No selfies thankyou.

[mark poulson]

I'm more interested in how cold beer goes with a hot tub at Christmas in Arizona!

[CNC Molds N Stuff]

No selfies thankyou.

 

You are quite welcome.  An old half crippled fat guy in a hot tub.  Even I am grossed out  LOL.  

[RayburnGuy]

An old half crippled fat guy in a hot tub.

 

I didn't know I was spending Christmas at your house Bob.

 

Ben

[CNC Molds N Stuff]

P.S.  See my Adult Beverage post up in the docks for the recipe to Glug!

Edited November 24, 2015 by Bob La Londe