Lip Length

[SW Lures]

I found that if I place a lip of a moderate length on a lure, but I put a Tie Eye on the nose of the bait the bait runs side ways (with a light amount of weight). If I put the weight (front part of the bait) that would get the bait close to suspending the bait runs at about 70° down.

During my testing stage of baits, I am experimenting with each design to find what can be done with each bait. I have found that I can do one of two techniques. I can cut the lip down or I can bring the Tie out on the lip. I'm making a 4" minnow shape bait with a 1.375" lip at 25°'s.

My question is; is there a rule of thumb to the length of the bill for a tie on the nose of a bait or is this issue just a part of the process of designing? All views are welcome.

Thanks;

Dale

[Vodkaman]

I think your understanding of what is going on is good.

 

Yes, the tow eye is too far back.

 

There are two solutions; shorten the lip or move the eye forward. Given the parameters that you have given, I presume that you are looking for depth of swim, so shortening the lip is no good.

 

There are no equations for this setup, believe me, I searched hard. It is prototyping, but eventually, you will get a 'feel' for where the tow eye must go. From there, it is fine tuning to find the maximum depth.

 

Dave

[mark poulson]

I've found that keeping the line tie point just behind the center of the lip, closer to the lure than the tip of the lip, seems to be about right for most of the baits I make.  Almost a 55/45 ratio.  That is for deep divers.

I also found that the more shallow the bait is going to run, the closer to the nose I can move the line tie.

 

I hope that makes sense.

[JRammit]

I dont separate the two... On the lip or on the nose doesn't matter, line tie is just the "relationship" between the body and the lip

For instance, say you made 2 crazy baits... One an 8" body with a 1" lip, the other a 1" body with an 8" lip..... You could get them both to swim by moving the line tie...... On the long body, the tie would be somewhere on top of the back... On the other it would be far forward on the lip

This is how i understand it, but im not likely to build such baits to prove it

[diemai]

@ DaleSW

 

There are far more crankbait dynamics than just lip size and angle and tow eye position ,......some more are body profile(both in sideview and cross section) , body length and width , buoyancy of body material being used , weight of lip material , lip shape , amount and location of ballast , ...and maybe even some more .

 

Altering just one of these would change the swimming action and/or diving depth compared to an anotherwise same bait , ...often significantly , sometimes only subtle .

 

F. e. I had once made two almost accurately alike 6 1/2" slender minnow baits with a downward pointing , shallow diving lexan lip , line tie slighly below the nose tip ,.......one out of abachewood(quite buoyant) and one out of beechwood(less buoyant) . Both had lead sheet ballast in their belly slots to render both of them just floating , both at about same level .

 

The abachewood lure swam very well , I could fish it with long sweeps and also rapid jerks of the rod tip , ...off course also retrieve constantly to a depth of about two feet , .....it would always woble nicely and remain stable at any pace .

 

The beechwood minnow could only be retrieved slowly to perform a similar wobble to it's abache twin , though the wobble was more exaggerated sideward and came at a little slower frequency .

 

Jerking or sweeping the beechwood lure was impossible , it would turn over and blow out instantly .

 

Why this ?

 

-beechwood is heavier , less buoyant and more dense than abachewood , thus takes less ballast for a comparable swim level at rest .

 But belly ballast in a lure works like the keel of a sailing boat , ..it tends to pull the lure(or boat) to upright level , .....if there is less ballast , there is less of such tendency .

 

 -Not only less ballast in the belly of the beechwood lure , but also less general buoyancy of the lurebody material , ......meaning....... as the lure gets pushed sideward by the force of the water pressure on the lip pivoting the lure around the tow eye to kinda capsize , .......the less buoyant beechwood , namely the back portion of the lure , ..... would dig in deeper and easier , as it won't pull back upright as well as a more buoyant material would do .

 

Both of these differences in lure dynamics cause the beechwood lure to blow out , whereas the Abache lure of same outer dimensions , same line tie and lip configuration and same swim level at rest does perform well .

 

This is just ONE example , .......to me such diversities make up for never getting bored with luremaking , .....even after more than 25 years I'm still discovering new things about lure dynamics !

 

Regarding your lip causing the lure to lay on it's side , ...this is because the lip plane ahead of the tow eye is too large , thus generating too much leverage around the tow eye under the water pressure .

 

To counterwork this , you must either place more belly ballast(to work like the keel of a sailing boat), or , .....if your lurebody is not buoyant enough to carry more ballast , you must reduce the lip's plane , .......or move the tow eye forward to gain less lip plane ahead of the tow eye to achieve less leverage around the tow eye .

 

Regarding lip planes , .......during the past two or three years I've increasingly gotten into slender oval or pointed lips , ........these can be kept quite long(even with the tow eye at the nose(if not exaggerating the lip's length , though) , still maintaining good diving depth , .......but actionwise such lips do povide rather tight wiggle patterns compared to the typical halfround diving bills , which are fairly wider towards their tips to generate more leverage around the tow eye(but therefore also easier subject to blow-out) , thus letting a lure swim with a wider wobble . 

 

You see , ..only a few examples  within the wide world of lure dynamics ,......but it surely is great fun , ....right now I'm into experiments to achive possible best casting performances, .....without any weight shifting system , off course , ...I'm already over that one , I guess !

 

Good luck , Dieter

Edited November 23, 2015 by diemai

[SW Lures]

@ V-Man and JR

I believe I am understanding but will have to rework the baits (2) to try to save my work. One of the three I will keep as my proto, I keep one unfinished for an future reference, I do that with each one. I believe that I understand enough to keep this to a minimum in the future.

@ Dieter

The wood has all been the same with the same original weight. Yes Sir I will pay more attention to the leverage of the lip from now on, just like the shape of the body and weight distribution. This has helped me a lot. I believe I know about what size and shape to pay greater attention to.

Oh well back at it for this bait.

Thanks;

Dale

[Vodkaman]

Dieter's words explain precisely why adding weight partially solved the problem, by solving the blow out. I addressed only the main issue of tow eye and lip length, but as Dieter says; there is more to it than that. The balance of a lure is a system of many parameters, some more, some less relevant for a particular problem. For example; part of your balance problem is body length, you could say that your body is too short for the lip or not fat enough. But you wouldn't adjust the body when the lip could be shortened or the eye moved forward.

 

Your job is to learn the effect of each of these parameters, test swim a lure and be able to see immediately what needs adjusting to fix the problem. Dieter's expertise is attained because he rarely builds the same lure more than a few times. Therefore his 'feel' for the parameters is very strong and practiced.

 

Dave

[diemai]

@ DaleSW

 

..........you've got a PM containing a PDF-file !

 

Greetz , Dieter

[SW Lures]

Thanks Dieter

Dale

[SW Lures]

By the way V-Man, I remember in one of your (I believe it was you) comments in some other thread you were explaining about suspending baits. One of the variables was water temperature. You were right, I've seen it for myself last weekend. I tested a bait during late summer, when the water was much warmer one of my baits was close to suspending, a little rise/floating. This weekend with the water temperature lower the same bait sank slowly. I just wanted to mention that.

Thanks everyone,

Dale

[RayburnGuy]

That's just the opposite of what should have happened Dale.

 

Ben

 

http://www.math.mtu.edu/gk-12/coldversuswarm.html

[Vodkaman]

DaleSW - Ben is right, the water becomes heavier and can support more weight. The result, the lure gets pushed up.

 

It is the same with sea water, which is denser than fresh water. So, a lure that suspends in fresh, will rise in sea water.

 

Dave