fishon-son Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 any mold makers running a tormach cnc mill? check them out tormach.com cheap home owners cnc mill 15 to 21 k financing to.....great to get your started made 100% usa just throwing this out there my buddy has modal 1100 and runs a small company out of his garage...great for the hobbiest... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNC Molds N Stuff Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 I asked Tormach about them. The 770 looks like it would make a fair mold machine. It would be ok for a hobbyist, but according to Tormach both the 770 and the 1100 are limited to 15iss. That low acceleration really makes 3d jobs run a lot slower than you would think. I'm probably going to buy a couple more small mills after the first of the year, and I have looked at Tormach rather thoroughly. The 1100 looks like a nice general purpose light weight mill. The 10k spindle on the 770 makes it a little more appealing for mold making, but the low acceleration is a deal breaker for me. If it did 25iss or better I might already own one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 bob,what do you mean by low acceleration.? my friends machine moves right along cutting all types of aluminum parts ..was at his place a few weeks back watching him ..Its no Mazak or has but dose a really good job and 10k rpm works just fine..hell he will do 35 k this year in work...making extra gun parts for the shop he works at.. ar stuff....he said it would do just find for doing small molds just sayin......tormach.com if anyone want to look..i guess if your looking for a small mill to do big work don't buy this ,,but I will say it moves well....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNC Molds N Stuff Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 I mean Tormach said, "It ONLY accelerates at 15iss." That's a lower acceleration rate than any other machine I currently have in service. Even the cheapest ones. When doing 3D machining it will never accelerate up to the programmed speed on millions of normal types of jobs. I specifically asked Tormach. If you are slotting and pocketing with long linear moves such as pocketing out the trigger group area of an AR15 receiver it can reach its full speed, but if you are doing lots of small moves such as 3D machining craw or fish body cavity it will likely never reach the programmed feed rate. Certainly not if you are taking optimum machining methods for material removal rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNC Molds N Stuff Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 (edited) Look at it this way. Your 4 cylinder 1.7 liter VW Rabbit might theoretically reach 100MPH, but it would take it many miles to catch my 6.6 liter turbo diesel with its 98mph programmed speed limit. There are small machines too with higher acceleration rates. Edited December 10, 2015 by Bob La Londe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 What's funny about this post is having a machine does not make you a mold maker. They will cut a mold but who's going to program it? That's the real challenge. Sure you could run simple programs but even those have limits if you can't draw it and produce code for the machine to use. Then there's the cad cam program, the good well known ones are pricey and not easy to just start drawing. My point is it sounds like a good idea but it's way more complicated to actually do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 Desire and lots of spare time, I would say are the essential ingredients, because with these two, you can learn everything else. You need a CAD software, to get your model into the computer. CAM software to convert the CAD data into a language that the m/c can read. Although the CAD to CAM is largely automatic, it does not give perfect results and even makes grinding mistakes. You have to understand the code and be able to interpret and find the errors and even make improvements. It is almost a certainty that you will crash the machine at some point or even several. Parts will break and have to be replaced, so you will have to get familiar with the intimate workings of your machine. You will become so familiar that you will end up making modifications and eventually building your own machine from bits of others. You cannot decide not to do the CNC machine thing because you do not have the requisite knowledge. No one has unless they work in that industry. But, with the desire and the time, you will get there. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNC Molds N Stuff Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 To be fair Tormach has a reputation for reliability and a ZEALOUSLY loyal fan base. Just say something less than worshipful on the Tormach board at the CNC Zone forums and you will see what I mean. LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 i guess what i see my friend doing made me though it could be a good investment if someone was wanting to start doing there own molds....frank m&gcoding a program isn't that hard...I have 30 yrs in the trade and on a scale of 1-10 its about a 3 1/2 to 4.....I have trained many kids right out of high school to teach them a great job...funny about the cad programming we still edit the crap out of it at the machine and only really use cad/cam on the more harder jobs.....I have not seen a mold yet that I could not g code out...its just time on the machine....with a lot of cheaper programs out now you can get a- m . g. code machine running a conversational program for under $400 bucks we have that two for the newer guys and that is really easy for them to understand....well next year I'm sure ill get some time to play on my buddy machine just to see for myself...as long as we get a break in the shootings out in our land....it seam every time some thing happens AR sales go up and make him work more.. it was just a thought....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNC Molds N Stuff Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 fishon-son, Tormach makes a fine machine. You could certainly make a lot of molds with it. I might have mentioned I started with a Taig which isn't a fraction as much machine and I made a lot of molds with it. There are companies still using and selling baits from molds I made on the Taig. Wow. Conversational. I use wizards which might be similar to conversational programming, and I sometimes use direct command entry mode (called midi on Mach 3 or Mach 4) all the time for simple projects. I certainly wouldn't dream of tackling something like the LBS Shad with conversational programming. Although to be fair I did completely hand code the original Square Back Minnow before I found the right CAD/CAM programs for me. That being said there are affordable CAD and CAM programs out there that now. Kind of gems in the rough so to speak. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 But, but, but...isn't there an app for this yet? I mean, there is for everything else. Hahaha Seriously, I'm sure there is some kind of a scanning program that converts whatever 3D object you scan into language to program your machine. I'm also sure it's expensive, or else everyone would be able to make their own molds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowFISH Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 I'd love to have a Tormach - but spending that much for a "hobby" just doesn't cut it with the wife!! For a hobbist - a Taig can work pretty well... before I had one - I also used a Sherline and Max NC machine (both are not as rigid/fast/good as the Taig). I've had my little taig for a few years now and it's a good little machine once you understand and it teaches you it's limits!!!! I tend to use materials that are easier to cut and forgiving of bad programming (RENShape) for my molds. I've found even after years of playing around - I don't have enough machining experience to just know how far I can push a small endmill through aluminum (And I mean 1/16" diameter small).... with the REN - as long as you don't hit it at full speed at some ridiculous depth the material is forgiving enough for a slight mistake on depth or stepover..... seems like with Aluminum you pay instantly for mistakes with snapped endmills. For those interested in the REN - I use the 5169 material and it's price is pretty much comparable to a like piece of aluminum. It's fairly rigid and much more forgiving than aluminum - so I don't eat endmills and time with mistakes (as much!!). While is seems like a dream - there are drawbacks, as it insulates the plastisol (similar to plaster) so bait production is slower, you need to lube the molds with a little PAM/WD-40/etc after 8-10 shots to avoid any sticking and if you try to cheap out and use the bear minimum of material (ie big thick bait / thin piece of material) the excess heat can cause the material to temporarily warp and force you to use a few clamps to keep the mold shut nice and tight. So don't be cheap - it will cost you in the end - I know!!!! LOL!! One benefit is you can glue pieces together (even with epoxy) so I have a few frankenstien molds that I've built with it combining a body/tail from molds I built. For a pure hobbist that interested in machining their own molds - a good PC , a Taig and some Ren 6169 can go a long long way. There are a ton of CAD apps out there to do basic stuff (and not so basic stuff) - and a few CAM packages that are reasonable in cost for a hobbist. I'm a longtime Pro-E guy - so I come from the design side and Im attempting to learn the machining part. I'm finding CAM is much more of a art than a science as you just can't take someones Mill size/feedrate/depth and just go... that info helps narrow your field at best. On the CAM app side - I've been using Deskproto - which is pretty simple to learn and is fairly comprehensive for a hobbist's needs provided you understand or read up on basic machining principles first. J. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNC Molds N Stuff Posted December 10, 2015 Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 Pretty hard to beat a Taig 2019 for the price. They run around 1700-1800 with controls plus computer plus software. Depending on your ability to scrounge and willingness compromise you could be up and running for 2500-2800. Up and running nicely for 3500 - 4500. Lots of Taig enthusisasts out there too so you can find lots of mods to "specialize" your machine for your applications. At one time I considered buying several Taigs and putting my own controls on them, but opted for heavier faster machines instead. I started CNC with a Taig, then picked up a MaxNC5 and a Chinese Noodle Router (as rigid as a noodle). I made a lot of stuff with those machines and did a lot of modifications on them. None of them get used regularly today. Well I do cut some wood and plastic parts on the Noddle Router from time to time, but the Taig is all apart for its umpteenth retrofit, and I gave the MaxNC5 to a friend. I cut the original LBS Shad on the MaxNC5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2015 if you know your math triangles..theres nothing you cant do....I will say I have made some pretty trick stuff over the years and just thought id throw this out there for someone to look at...coding g&m isn't that hard but learning your math is...know those triangles and how to cut arc's and radius is where its and in molds...that's the hard part...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNC Molds N Stuff Posted December 11, 2015 Report Share Posted December 11, 2015 (edited) Well technically STL files are made up of little triangles, but I just don't see basic math and conversational programming creating polymorphic 3D organic surfaces. If you can do it my hat is certainly off to you. Edited December 11, 2015 by Bob La Londe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted December 11, 2015 Report Share Posted December 11, 2015 Well for someone who has done this type of work for 30 years it is easy. Writing a code for a 3D model is another story. Writing code for 2d is doable for some. Before some one was to buy a machine to make molds really look into what it really takes to make a mold. There are many programs out there for many price ranges but you get what you pay for. Using these programs have some quirks and understanding what is going on is key and at least for me that is the challenge. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 11, 2015 Report Share Posted December 11, 2015 Funny how easy it is to do stuff when you actually know what you're doing. You need a basic skill set to do anything, and enough brains to understand what you're doing. My brother-in-law is an aerospace engineer, a computer expert, and a smart guy. But he called me when someone kicked in his back door, and he needed it repaired/replaced. He had an 1 3/8" thick door, so i bought him a 1 3/4" door, routed out the rabbeted jam so it would accept an 1 3/4" door, hung and locked the new door, installed an aluminum threshold and drip cap, and was done in a day. He had watched me periodically while I worked, and was amazed at how I knew how to do all that stuff. I told him I know it because that's what I do for a living, just like he knows the stuff he knows for designing spaceships for a living. I'm pretty sure he could learn to do what I do, but I'd be really challenged to learn what he does. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNC Molds N Stuff Posted December 11, 2015 Report Share Posted December 11, 2015 (edited) I still want to see somebody program a polymorphic 3D surface to match somebody's rough hand drawn sketches with conversational programming. Not saying it can't be done. Just saying I might have to bring a few meals and a sleeping bag because it just might take a while. Edited December 11, 2015 by Bob La Londe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 11, 2015 Report Share Posted December 11, 2015 Even modelling on CAD, to produce those surfaces is often no walk in the park. Even with 30+ years experience on CAD engineering, I had to learn new tricks and techniques to get the surfaces that I wanted. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishon-son Posted December 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 lets not make it sound that bad...really it all speeds and feeds...bob theres lots of programs out there to program your m&g codes with conversational software....with mazatrol on a mazak mill is all conversational programing now you can eia.or g code it but mazatrol dose all that for you....thats why mazaks cost so much for the eazy programing...hell they have 7axis milling mazatrol all conversational..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 I still want to see somebody program a polymorphic 3D surface to match somebody's rough hand drawn sketches with conversational programming. Not saying it can't be done. Just saying I might have to bring a few meals and a sleeping bag because it just might take a while. I love it when you talk dirty! How did that get past the moderators? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 lets not make it sound that bad...really it all speeds and feeds...bob theres lots of programs out there to program your m&g codes with conversational software....with mazatrol on a mazak mill is all conversational programing now you can eia.or g code it but mazatrol dose all that for you....thats why mazaks cost so much for the eazy programing...hell they have 7axis milling mazatrol all conversational..... Fishon-son, The older we get, the harder it is to learn new programs. My eldest son took computer programming in college, and learned Basic. I couldn't. Today's computers and programs are light years ahead of what we had when computers first became "commmon", and I still can't learn most of the programs. My youngest, a 20 year old daughter, has computers so far embedded in her operating system that she is instinctive, where as her older sister (late 20's) and one of her brothers (30), both college graduates with advanced degrees and successful careers, and both computer literate, are left in the dust by her skills. Try and keep that in mind when you say it should be simple. It may be for you, but, for some of us, it is a struggle. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 I used to love programming and was able to write software for every computer that I worked on, from my Casio programmable calculator, Psion organiser, DOS command procedures, GRAPL (design) and more. But then I made a bad decision, as I did not have time to do electronics, hardware and software, I chose electronics. By the time I realized my mistake, software had moved on so far, that a computer course would have been necessary just to catch up. A course was out of the question, as I was working and had a family to support. That was my second mistake, I should have made the commitment and made the jump. Computer programming was what I enjoyed, but mid-career moves when you have a family were just not allowed or even contemplated. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNC Molds N Stuff Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 It's all speeds and feeds? Really? LOL. Ok. I thought it was all triangles and basic math. LOL. Make up my mind. ROFL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNC Molds N Stuff Posted December 12, 2015 Report Share Posted December 12, 2015 V-Man. My education is in computer information systems. I never had a job as a programmer, but I've done a heck of a lot of programming over the years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
