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Tormach Cnc Mill

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Now im confused (again)

For anyone like me reading... How does the machine know what to do with out a program to follow??... If you dont use CAD, then what do you use?... Paintbrush??

 

most cnc mills and lathes come with software and a format to follow to achieve your program..the format would be you writing a coded program in m&g codes using your print and writing in your sizes ..you start with a zero point and work your lenths form the center line.in basic just like making a drawing.but you use the tip of the cutting tool as your pencil....

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but some how we needed cad/cam software and 10 yrs of collage to turn any machine on to try and make a mold.....

 

Nobody said that.  In FACT I tried to provide good information for anybody who was interested in doing CNC mold making.  I'm not sure what your purpose was or if you have an agenda, but I've always tried to learn and share in these forums.  This is a topic I have some knowledge of and was trying to share back in exchange for all of the knowledge I have garnered here.  You seemed to want to diminsh anything I said.  Maybe Its just over sensitivity on my part.  I mentioned other affordable machines, affordable software, and the fact that I am pretty much self taught with the help of a few million people on the internet.  That is first hand experience supporting the premise you claim.  Maybe the conversational mode on a Mazaak can allow any anybody who understands a little about triangles, basic math, and feeds and speeds to produce an organic 3D mold cavity without aid of CAD or CAM software, but even if I weren't a little skeptical I'm not likely to have a Mazaak any time soon.  Neither are 99.999% of the other visitors to this forum.  Most of us could afford a Novakon, or a Syil, or a Charter Oak, or a Tormach, or a Taig, or a MaxNC, or a SaleCNC, or a Bolton, or any of a dozen other small machines if we chose to.  Its still not pocket change for most of us, but its within the reasonable range of possibility.  Because of that those are all machines I have spent time reading up on.  Some I own.  Some I have owned.  Some I will own.  Some I won't own.  

 

I do very much believe that good molds can be made with a small relatively affordable machine and affordable software.  I know because I have done it.  I just don't believe that Tormach and (certainly not the Tormach 1100) is the best machine if mold making is your primary goal.  Because of the supplemental parts and accessories Tormach offers I VERY MUCH wanted them to be.  Their quick change tooling systems and affordable tool holders are on the top of the reasons why.  That they offer an affordable automatic tool changer is another.  There are a lot of things Tormach offers that nobody else has or that others have copied.  

 

I have studied mold making specifically for the types of aluminum molds we use in this hobby, and I made my first molds for exactly the reason that somebody came on here and said what a big deal it was and how much it took.  My first thing was just to be able to make them, and then to make them efficiently.  I already had a little Taig in my work shop.  After reading his posts I decided to make a couple simple molds just to prove it wasn't such a big deal.  It wasn't... and it was.  I was still learning machining at the time.  I didn't have decent CAD software, and I didn't have decent CAM software.  I had a drawing program and a cr@p program that did a half a$$ job of converting DXF files to G-code.  The result was also cr@p.  I spent all my spare time for about three days developing a spread sheet macro that would allow me to quickly write iterative incremental code and learning exactly how various g-codes actually worked.  What I couldn't do with my macros I wrote by hand.  I made a few simple molds that produced baits that caught fish.  That was more than a couple years ago.  I think I bought my Taig in October 2008.  I only started actually offering my custom mold service publicly a couple years ago.  That was when I felt like my abilities were good enough.  Maybe you can do it faster.  Others have.  

 

I'm no authority on CNC machining or mold making.  All I know is what I have learned in my shop.  Some things I know.  Somethings I don't know.  Somethings I am probably wrong about.  Spindle speed, feed rate, and acceleration rate are very important.  For organic 3D cavities acceleration is more important than maximum feed rate after a certain point.  If you have a machine that can cut reliably at 80IPM and will accelerate at 25iss it will cut a lot of molds faster than a machine that can cut at 150IPM but only accelerates at 15iss.  The difference is in something as simple as a cone shaped cut with both machines programmed to take the same cut.  You will see one machine reaches the programmed speed for a large portion of the cut, but the other never does.  That is assuming the machines can handle the same cut of course.  I'm not talking about saving 5 minutes on an 4 hour cut.  I'm talking about turning an 8 hour cut into a 4 hour cut.  

 

I'll freely admit Shawn Collins, Dave at Bears Baits, Kevin at Basstackle, Rick Jacobs at Jacob's Baits, Bob at Bob's Tackle Shack, Delbert Wilcox at DelMart Molds, and a whole host of others are more experienced and probably better mold makers than I am, but I don't see any of them on here sharing about cutting and making molds with affordable machines.  Well, to be fair Rick Jacobs did actually tell me a few things that helped me get started and make some of the decisions I made.  

 

I didn't even disagree that you can make molds with a Tormach.  I just tried to point you at Tormachs I think will do it better and urge you to consider other machines as well.  

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Can someone machine bondo, or some other softer material, with the same machines used to make aluminum molds?

 

YES.  

 

Although a lot of materials I really don't want on my milling machines for fear of mucking up the lubrication or clogging the coolant system.  I have a small gantry router for wood and plastics that is grease lubricated.  I plan to pick up a bigger gantry router for sheet goods down the road.  

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I've seen the gantry routers that were computer controlled at wood working shows.  They are pretty amazing.

 

They work basically the same way as a CNC mill.  Sames types of controllers and servo or stepper motors.  Same control computers and control software.  Just a different focus.  They trade rigidity for size and footprint to working envelope ratio.  Not that some very expansive gantry style routers aren't rigid, but that it takes a whole lot more to do it.  If you want heavy and rigid you build a mill.  If you want large format and don't care as much about heavy and rigid you build a router.  Obviously the spindle is chosen based on the primary type of work for either type machine.  

 

Then there are all kinds of variants in between.  I've been accumulating parts for a couple years to build a hybrid design myself.  One optimized for cutting aluminum molds.  Fast, high acceleration, modestly rigid, and a compromise between size and foot print.  Moving table on one axis only.  Fixed gantry with the Z & X movement on it.  I don't need a whole lot of clearance either so I hope to be able to design a leverage advantage to reduce flex that is not possible on most gantry routers.  A machine made specifically to be a table top (although too heavy for most tables) mold maker.  

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it's very much a machinable material and it's very stable to work with . Time and moisture does change things since it is vulnerable to absorbing moisture but its great for testing purposes (aside from the mess). A lot of people use machinable wax for learning cnc ,  prototyping etc , and  another material which gets used and is pretty much a block of bondo .

 I've only used it once throughout my career and it was roughly a 20x20 inch square block . It was small compared to a lot of the stuff that we typically  ran but It extremely necessary because the material cost of the one off part was 15k and highly certified which could take months to replace . For the most part most standard materials are usually cheap enough to risk scrapping a part .

Edited by curt k
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I reckon perspex would machine nice too, but maybe a bit expensive. There would be lessons to be learned from clear molds, especially high cavity counts and appendages.

 

Dave

Plastics can be pretty nasty when using small cutters ,it can melt to the cutter quite easily  and break the tool or stick in little globs to the part being made  . The right choice in tools and a heavy coolant concentrate is a must  . 

Edited by curt k
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sealing it should be good for preventing moisture and make it less sticky for pouring . What I meant by stable is that it doesn't tend to warp out of shape or suffer from stress relief . It's more of a machining thing than anything . The part that I made for example was a high tolerance titanium clevis which had so much material hogged out of it that it needed a lot of machine operations due to stress relief while machining and re-clamping . The prototype block followed the same procedures but it held its shape extremely well 

Edited by curt k
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I have not machined a lot of plastic, but I have found a few things that help.  Screaming fast feed rate, slower (not slow) spindle speed than I thought until I learned to trust my calculator and fresh sharp tools.  You absolutely want it cutting and not rubbing or it will go south quick.  Lately I've been making a lot of circuit board mounts out of HDPE and after I got over my fears of running as fast as it says it machined quite nicely.  I also make stencils from time to time out of some plastic sheet.  Its some stuff I have left from doing some vacuum formed parts a while back.  I forget which plastic, but its not polycarbonate.  I glue it (spray contact adhesive) to an MDF backer and cut it really fast with lower RPMs on my little router.  I have also done a little polycarbonate, but not much.  If I recall cast polycarbonate machined nicely, but extruded was a little more finicky. Its not really my area of expertise (if I can claim to have one).  Whenever I need to make a plastic cut I haven't done before I ask one of the sign shop guys. So far I have cut all my plastics dry, but I have not used really tiny tools like I use on aluminum, and I haven't done any jobs that keep the cutter in the same area for a long time like 3D milling a cavity. 

Edited by Bob La Londe
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they use wax for making investment castings....it very easy to machine ..its a mold process all by itself   you start by machining your part or parts in a series then coat it with plaster after it hardens and drys you melt the wax out..then cast your parts with what ever mat'l your casting with...I would think the new do-it line of molds are investment casting...essential line...it leaves almost a perfict finish but with very small pits that I think are making a dul bait..i don't know the whole process but have made a few parts in wax year ago to be casted  

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bob i would think the block is all casted...you have to think in reverse so if you had a senco mold you would take a block of wax lets say one side and machine the1/2 worm into it then coat it with plaster dry it then pour your molting mat'l into it....that would be the first half the wax will burn out or you can cook it out with a oven  what you have left would be a casting of plaster..knock off the plaster after you pour in your mat'l and theres your 1st half of your mold.......

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I know how to do both last wax casting and investment wax casting.  I've done them both. 

 

I am saying machining individual wax blanks for every mold would be labor and machine intensive compared to casting the wax blank.  As fast as wax machines its still a couple orders of magnitude slower than just casting it.  Sure if they only made a couple of a mold it might make sense, but Do-It has a history of making cast molds exactly the same for a very long time.  It just doesn't make sense to keep a machine tied up that long.  It doesn't add up.  Machine time, consumed power, total time.  Machine a wax mold once and be able to have an infinite supply of blanks to use for casting your molds. 

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Absofreakinglutely.  The aluminum is the cheap part. 

 

Cost of materials is always a fraction of the cost of labor.

Time is money.  That was true when I bid work as a general contractor, and it's really true for anything.

Your time is valuable.  You only have one lifetime (with apologies to Shirley MacLaine).

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You were a general contractor?  I don't think I can like you any more.  LOL.  

 

Well, as long as it was in the past and won't ever happen again I guess we can get along.  I suppose everybody deserves one second chance.  Even a general contractor.  Just don't ask me to "help us out," or "take care of this for us."  No code speak for, "Do this for us for free and we'll let you continue to kiss our a$$e$ for a while longer."  LOL.  

Edited by Bob La Londe
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Hahaha  I took a lot of crap from my rich clients, but I never gave it back to my employees or subs.

I had guys who worked for me for more that twenty years who are still my friends.

And almost all of my clients are still friends, too.

The very first client I ever had as a general contractor told me, "Good work makes good friends", and I took that to heart.

Plus, doing a good job for a fair price feels good.

I made a good living for 35 years from referrals.

I gave good house.   :wink:

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  The materials are by far the cheapest part.... even as a hobbist - the amount of time you'll put in to get a mold/design just right is insane...  I'm getting better but also live with things that if I were selling I'd probably have to deal with (sinks/excess flash, etc.).  It's just like pouring - the materials are cheap - but factor in your time nad you realize instantly that it's an extremely tough business proposition.... 

 

  I have a couple designs that if I said I had 200-300 hours into them that's probably a light estimate... that time includes Initial design, CADing it up, CAM time, CNC cutting - then making revisions to fix it and back through that process all over again.... sometimes more than once or twice.... even at a near minimum wage I'd be at 3-5K for that design not counting consumables (mills, materials) and overhead (Cost of a machine, electricity, etc).  Luckily I'm a hobbist and I actually enjoy the process - as a buisness I'd be sunk in the first week.

 

  Like anything else - over time technology will speed this stuff up..... it's still way too clostly - but you can rapid protoype (3D print) in metals... from what I've seen it's a little rough (finish has a texture) - but I'd bet in 3-4 years it will be cheap enough that you could start to cut down on the CAM/CNC time - but the design/CAD is never going anywhere - neither is the trail and error to get things right.

 

  Bob - would love to understand more of your hobbist mill feedback.  My little taig is great - but I'd love to upgrade at some point to something a bit more rigid and larger.  I had looked at the Tormachs and thought they were pretty sweet - I keep an eye out for used ones in my area.  Of the other mills in that general price range - what are your thoughts?  I tend to run my little taig at 6-8 IPM on items with alot of detail and heavily contoured shapes as I found it will miss steps when I try to run it too fast.  I've learned with my machine slow and steady wins the race.  The speed isn't that critical to me being a hobbist - but I'd love to be able to run faster if I ever do upgrade.

 

       J.

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