SW Lures Posted December 23, 2015 Report Share Posted December 23, 2015 I have read that you could find the weight of a bait, then placed in water for a period (24 hours) of time to test your sealing techniques and materials. Of course then if water has got in then the bait would be heavier. My question is, is this test good enough or should the bait be submerged and is this time enough or to much? A good discussion is welcome. I won't to hear all sides of the topic. I am going to seal, paint and clear coat a throw away bait to use. I'm trying to find out several things. These are, is my sealer good and then is my clear coat that I have found is good enough and I want to prove its worth. So far the UV and cracking test are doing well on this product. I will tell you the products name when I prove that it is worth the effort. Thanks, Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted December 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2015 I'm seeing a double thread post. I only posted once. This maybe a glitch in the program. Sorry for the confusion, please post here I guess. Dale......ugh!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musky Glenn Posted December 23, 2015 Report Share Posted December 23, 2015 (edited) I believe that would be a fair test but I would rather have it totally under water. Not for pressure but to make sure the top side was covered also. Let us know how it goes. I would like to see it done with just the seal coat and one with the top coat so we could tell for sure that the seal coat was stopping water intrusion. If only the top coated lure stopped the water then the seal coat might be eliminated. Edited December 23, 2015 by Musky Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fish pirate Posted December 23, 2015 Report Share Posted December 23, 2015 Just dry the lure in a dehydrator to 0 percent moisture, weigh the lure, put all the wood sealer you want, hang it up in 70 percent humidity for 1 week and weigh again and you will find that sealers are only good for grain raise. The do not stop water! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted December 23, 2015 Report Share Posted December 23, 2015 (edited) There should be a balance between our testing and reality. Most anglers have a very hard time with reality. Take a hardcore angler fishing a crank. How long is that crank in the water in a given day of fishing? Now take a weekend guy or the hit the local farm pond for a few minutes... For most their testing isn't really proving their intended purpose anyway, as all they are actually testing is how well they finished the bait (glued in ties, lips, and topcoat). You have to remove the variables and only test what is really needed. It is a waste of time using a crank for testing as a cube of piece of wood coated in the top coat is all that is needed and answers the true question. Edited December 23, 2015 by Travis 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted December 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 Travis I had a moment to think about what I had posted this morning and thought that it would be a waste to ruin a bait body. I feel you are right about the time a bait is truly in the water and the first protection is the primary one. However I also agree with Musky Glenn. The reason for this is that the paint with the top coat. I'm thinking about sealing the way I normally do and soak a piece of wood with hangers for a reasonable time. What the amount of time is I'm not sure yet. That will tell me about my wooden blank. Then drill some holes in another piece of wood and paint it only near these hangers. After that, clear coat it as normal and dunk that piece. All weighing will be done before and after. I have a moisture meter also, but I haven't never truly trusted it. Using both should make me happy. I'll have it finished by the end of the weekend. I believe this is my last concern about creating baits in general. Now I can learn about designs and how to weight them properly. There are just things like this that I'm not confident about. Thanks for all of your input, Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 From my own personal experience I'd propose adding a step. Since the hardware, hooks, and lip all put stress on a bait while it's being fished, I'd add a fishing test of the sealed-only lure, after you've done your submersion test, and then proceed to the finish paint and top coat for the final test. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mayhem1202 Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 I did exactly this kind of test earlier in the year, taking pieces of balsa, adding a screw eye, and weighting them down in an aquarium for 48 hours. I weighed the pieces on 0.01g scales before and after immersion and calculated the increase in weight as a percentage. The untreated control piece increased in weight by 119%. At the time I couldn't source any propionate, so that wasn't included unfortunately, but I do have some now and will repeat the test when I find the time. Same goes for a Bondo sealing product that I think should be good - we'll see. Casting resin produced the best result of the products I tested, at 3%, with yacht varnish just behind on 4%, but neither product penetrates much on the first coat so their effectiveness is highly doubtful for toothy fish. G4 Pond Sealer performed pretty well too, at 10%, with the first coat heavily thinned to get right into the wood. The biggest surprises for me were ones that I thought would perform quite well. Thompson's solvent based concrete sealer registered a 54% increase and sanding sealer 44%. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 Mayhem - good test and some surprising results. Particularly the resin; is that polyester or epoxy? If it is polyester, then acetone can be used to thin it down, to help with the penetration. But, the problem is that there is no time for the soak before the resin cures. Another idea that I have been thinking about, is to thin the resin without adding the catalyst, and soak for 24 hours. Wipe off the lure and paint the surface with raw catalyst. This idea would need to be tested on a scrap piece of wood. Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted December 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 Truly interesting ideas and test! All of your suggestions have got me thinking and I'm going to try something. I don't know if it will work so I'll keep it to myself for now. What I'm getting from your suggestions on the sealer that penetration into the wood is the best, which then creates a barrier. I have worked with wood for years as a hobby and some profit, but furniture does not get put into water. But the sealing I get. I really messed up on a new design, which left four blanks (didn't swim). They will be my "ginnypigs". I have a few days off, so I will start this today and maybe do some painting. Later, Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mayhem1202 Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 It was polyester casting resin, Dave. As you say, it gels pretty quickly once the catalyst is added, giving very limited time to soak in. I did try Envirotex too, which obviously cures much more slowly, but I was impatient and only gave it a single drip coat, so it wasn't a fair test against the other products that all had three coats. It still managed 8% though. Thinned for penetration and given two or three coats, I'd expect E'tex to give results at least as good as the casting resin, if not better. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted December 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 The first test is now finished. I accidentally left it longer then I believe necessary (24 hrs.). I had a intrusion of 25% with that sealer. Now tomorrow I will start the final test, with the sealer, paint and the clear coat on another sample. That will tell the story. Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 The cells in wood are designed as a water/dissolved nutrient system, so they are working against us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 At one time I was really concerned with this sort of stuff and tried a lot of the "tricks" that are mentioned in my "time of searching". After awhile I came to the conclusion (enlightenment ?) we are over engineering most of our baits. Guys will give examples and horror stories and yes stuff does happen but the heart of the issues usually rest on the individual making the lure and the shortcuts they implement to knock a bait out. I guess I don't get too hung up about creating some sort of mythical bullet proof lure. Luckily I know where I can get more. I have used the propionate, solo cups, and plexiglass dissolved in appropriate solvents to dip to seal/coat lures. E Tex, concrete sealers, and bought countless other products to try out during that "time of searching". I bought some Rot Doctor to use on some boat repair work and was going to use it on some baits to see how it did but never tried it. For me smearing some super glue or some thinned Devcon 5 minute is sufficient to make a crank or top water that stood up for my bass fishing needs. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted December 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2015 Nah, this is just curiosity about a product. So while there I just said, what the heck about a few minutes setting it up and learning something from it. While at the same time making baits. Very soon I will have to get back to making wire baits with a time limit that I do sell. So finding these answers are important to me with the time I have, if nothing else the test will tell me that I'm going or not going in the right direction. I may have to go back to D2T, DN' s or a MCU. But I won't know until I try. I'm just passing on the info as I find it. May help someone, who knows. But if I find something cheaper and faster, but yet just as good.......it's an epiphany. Dale 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark poulson Posted December 26, 2015 Report Share Posted December 26, 2015 Dale, If you're selling baits, time is money. Both PVC and resin lets you skip all the sealing and waterproofing steps, and move right into painting and top coating. You'll never have to worry about water intrusion again. I like to carve, so I use PVC. But, if I were going to sell baits, I'd move to some kind of resin, once I had a lure body I liked. By adding your lips, hardware, and ballast after you pour your bodies, you can still play around with stuff to get different actions, but you'll have more time for that, since you won't have to carve and shape your baits, or worry about sealing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted December 26, 2015 Report Share Posted December 26, 2015 Dale, If you're selling baits, time is money. Both PVC and resin lets you skip all the sealing and waterproofing steps, and move right into painting and top coating. You'll never have to worry about water intrusion again. I like to carve, so I use PVC. But, if I were going to sell baits, I'd move to some kind of resin, once I had a lure body I liked. By adding your lips, hardware, and ballast after you pour your bodies, you can still play around with stuff to get different actions, but you'll have more time for that, since you won't have to carve and shape your baits, or worry about sealing them. Selling baits and in quantity definitely changes the way you one might look at things. You can really churn out baits once you start pouring molds. I could knock out a lot in no time just mixing and using the few molds I made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted December 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2015 Thanks for the advise, but I only sell here there in wire baits. But I'm no where near selling cranks, I just don't have the time nor am I good enough yet. I'm like Travis, I like working with the wood baits. Just pouring them is not as appealing to me. PVC, maybe in time but not yet. It's just that I have to stop making cranks until I get the others completed, couple of months I guess. I'm gonna start on them next weekend. So I wanted to prove the clear coat good or not by then. No I'm not looking to sell cranks, well not no time soon. Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted December 27, 2015 Report Share Posted December 27, 2015 Testing of construction and processes is very important, I do a lot of this for new designs. If you hand a bait out, you do not want it to come back as a failure. Worse still, a single failure can damage your reputation amongst multiple potential customers. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 Submerging blanks in a jar of your favourite (thinned) lacquer with a slight vacuum works, BUT it takes a week (warm week) for the blanks to 'gas off ' - I had a bit of a fad on this about 5 years ago. Just make sure you use a diaphragm pump, not anything where the fumes will flow through an armature -------------- Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted December 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 Lol, it would be a problem. We use a venture pump to check weldes on tanks. It does not create a lot of vacuum if you control the pressure flow. Hmmm....I'll keep that in storage and give it a go once I figure away to adapt. Thanks for the info. Pete Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ Fisher Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 I don'y know if this helps but I saw a video from the Duo Realis factory that included water testing. After they glued both halves of the bait together and they were dry they would submerge them in a bucket of warm water. They would use something like a large spider strainer that a chef would use to hold them under water for about 15 seconds. The narrator says the warm water causes the air inside the bodies to expand and if there is a flaw in the sealing they will have bubbles from the bad bait. I heard 70 degrees mentioned, but this was a Chinese factory and don't recall if it was F or C. These video's were from Youtube under Duo Realis heading Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ Fisher Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 Just realized your talking apples and I was talking oranges. Duh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW Lures Posted December 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 Not really AZ, the bubbles were noticeable during the sealing test, but during the clear coat there was none. No water intrusion to be found. Still some simple testing left, but time consuming. Just let them set and relax in the sun, then cooling. It appears to well worth the effort. Thanks, Dale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverMan Posted December 30, 2015 Report Share Posted December 30, 2015 The water intrusion test has been done several times on other sites. If you Google "lure water sealer test" or something like that you should find them. As I recall, what they discovered is no sealer stops the water from coming in. And, whether you dip the lure in the sealer quickly or soak it in sealer for days, makes no difference. As for using resin for production, it is nice but also very toxic which is what I don't like. They recommend a respirator at all times, fresh air circulation, gloves, etc. And, each time you machine a resin lure, drill, cut, etc, you introduce more toxins in the air. Isocyanates, known to cause cancer. Wood dust can be dangerous too but far safer than resin. I like the thought of using pvc but the foam board is way tOO soft, I can pull a screw right out with pliers. The decking I haven't tried because it's not available without ordering. RM 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
