Increasing Roll And Swimming Action On Prototype Shad Crank

[DiametricD]

Hi all,

 

I've been reading a ton on this forum and found so much helpful information, thank you all. I've made a few cranks based on others designs (Paul Adams Phox Minnow and one other), and they turned out great.

 

I've designed my first simple shad style bait and it swims with a very "tight" action. It's made from basswood and weighted with lead split shot sinkers (size 7 in front of hook hanger and 3/0 behind). I want to give my next iteration more "roll" and a "wider" swimming action. I've attached a picture and the current design drawing. Can anyone give me their intuition on how to do this? I think that a wider lip should help give it a wider swim, also I could maybe make the body wider as well. I'm only guessing though as I have very little experience.

 

 

 

thanks,

 

Harrison

[JBlaze]

Hello Harrison and welcome to TU. You have just asked a question I have been contemplating myself. How to get that roll. I want the bait to do a horizontal, side to side roll so that I will get that flashing side. I am fine with my x'ing action. I am thinking it will have something to do with height of or placement of the weight up in the lure and blade/bib placement but have not yet had the time to tinker with it.  Hopefully, someone will chime in on this one. 

John

 

By the way, Nice looking lure.

Edited April 1, 2016 by JBlaze

[RayburnGuy]

One thing that will help increase the side to side action (x'ing) is to place your ballast at the center of gravity of the lure. To find the center of gravity I built a balance beam out of a piece of hacksaw blade epoxied into a scrap of wood with the smooth edge of the blade facing up. Just place the bait on the balance beam and work it back and forth to find the COG. This is done after the bait has received it's final shaping and it works better with the lip and hook hangers installed.

 

John is correct about how to get more roll. To achieve a very stable bait the ballast is placed as low in the bait as possible. To get more roll the ballast can be placed higher in the lure. Anytime you go to moving ballast around it needs to be done in small increments as sometimes a small shift can make a huge difference. As far as I know there is no "magic bullet" that will tell you exactly where to place your ballast to get the desired reaction. It just takes experimentation. One thing about it is that once you've done a few baits you will start to get an idea of what to do to get what you want out of a bait.

 

good luck,

 

Ben

[JBlaze]

Thanks Ben, I plan on starting a few baits this coming week time permitting. I would like to make one which will roll similar to a smithwick rogue. I have always leaned torward the stable side of things and have gone from a big X'ing to a tight wiggle in this crank and have a feeling that this is going to take me a while to get what I am  looking for. Once I figure this one out, I am going to try to learn to use the air brush not just to spray paint but learn to paint the details that some of you guys do. Two years ago, I bought an Iwata eclipse hp-cs I think. It has been packed away just waiting to get used. I am excited about finally getting the chance to attempt real painting. Thanks again for the info.

John

[osutodd]

Thinking of what's in my tackle box, I'd say you could also angle the lip down more. But doing this will sacrifice depth.

[JRammit]

3 things ive found to change "x to y" action is lip angle, spreading ballast, and flat vs round sided bodies

I usually visualize the first by holding a crankbait in my hands, lip at 90 degrees and wiggling it back and forth... The steeper the lip, the more horizontal the body sits, so more "side to side wobble" (x)... The less lip angle, the more vertical the body sits, so more "belly to back wiggle" (y)

Having all the ballast in the cg (as Ben said) kind of gives the bait a "pivot point" to rotate around.... Spreading the weight out helps balance the action on both planes

Finally, the flat sided baits ive built seem to have more roll, while the rounder baits are all side to side action

[goolies]

I primarily make shallow running walleye trolling baits.  IMO rolling action (flash) is key to catching walleyes.  I believe my baits roll because I raise the cg in relation to the line drawn from nose to tail.  This is usually accomplished by moving the ballast higher in the bait and/or moving the line tie lower on the nose.

[DiametricD]

Thanks for all the help! I am going to try reallocating ballast close to the cg and a couple new lip angles. I just built a hacksaw balance beam and it works great Ben.

 

Thanks for the insights about body shape J, my lure is fairly flat sided so I think it will be the ballast change which gets the roll i want. I remember having an old round fatrap as a kid, it had a really wide wiggle to it.

 

My next bait I'm making is going to be a shallow running walleye minnow and I'll be sure to give it a good flashing roll to grab a few walleyes attention, thanks goolies.

 

I am thoroughly addicted now, I talked to a buddy who does CNC work for 2 hours yesterday about how to use it making baits. Luckily he takes his service fee in beers so my shoestring budget will stretch nicely. I've got to save for another couple months before i can get an airbrush setup and join John in the world of real lure painting.

 

Cheers,

Harrison

[RayburnGuy]

Glad the balance beam is working out for you Harrison. Just remember that you don't always want the ballast exactly centered. You can move it to various places to get your bait to react differently. You can also split your ballast into multiple locations. An example would be if you were wanting to build a flat sided crank with a tight wobble splitting the ballast both in front of and behind the belly hanger will help you achieve this. If you want a head down stance on your lure placing the ballast in the chest area will help you accomplish that.

 

Something else that will help you with your ballasting is to become familiar with the Archimedes water displacement theory. It will help you with determining how much ballast to use for different size baits. You can do a search and find everything you need to know about it.

 

Another thing to think about is that you don't have to have an airbrush to finish your baits when your just starting out. Quite a few people here at TU use paint brushes and spray cans and they turn out some really great looking baits. An airbrush doesn't make the art. The artist does. I'm a prime example. Been using an airbrush for almost 6 years now and I still can't paint. lol

 

Good luck and let us know if you run into any problems.

 

Ben

[Vodkaman]

DiametricD - regarding Ben's balance method; this is done without the ballast fitted, but everything else in place. This is inconvenient I know, but the idea is to get CoG nice and tight with the ballast, for a wide waggle.

 

Dave

[hazmail]

Trying to understand this 'Balance Beam'  Ben,, --do you have a slot down the centre of the lure,?,, CONFUSED here.

Pete

[RayburnGuy]

Trying to understand this 'Balance Beam'  Ben,, --do you have a slot down the centre of the lure,?,, CONFUSED here.

Pete

 

Hey Pete, here's what I did. If I don't explain it properly holler back and I'll try to do better.

 

I took a scrap of wood about 2 inches wide by about 4 inches long and cut a shallow slot across the wood block. The size of the wood doesn't really matter. It was just a handy piece that was laying around. The slot in the wood was cut with the same size hacksaw blade that was to be used in the balance beam so it would be a snug fit. After the slot is cut a short piece of hacksaw blade is glued into the slot.

 

To use the balance beam the lure blank is rested on the hacksaw blade. It is then moved back and forth until you find a point that it balances. You probably won't get it to perfectly balance without holding it, but by working the bait back and forth it will tip one way or the other until you have reached a point that your only moving the lure blank a very small amount. This will be the CoG. Or as close as I can get to it.

 

It's best to have all the hardware added to the bait for obvious reasons. With this beam it will be necessary to leave the hooks off since there isn't enough clearance between the top edge of the blade and the block of wood, but one could be built with a beam that was tall enough to accommodate the hooks. 

 

Hope this helps Pete.

 

@Dave......Thanks for adding that Dave. Sometimes I take it for granted that people know what is going on in my head. If they only knew how scary that could be.

 

Ben

Edited April 2, 2016 by RayburnGuy

[SW Lures]

Welcome DD (if I may call you that), I like your balance beam idea Ben. I have been doing this by trial and error, geez I need to ask the right questions. I hang my baits up while I go through a process on each of them. When I do I have got into a habit of hanging them from the belly hanger and look at how the bait balance out (depends on what I'm looking for). Also this is done with all hardware on it including the bill. Just my way of double checking.

Also what Ben stated about moving the weight up and down of the X line makes a difference. I believe I read this from Ben and others about this subject before and I started working on learning how and what does this do for the action of a lure.

As far as a shad design, I have been working on a "slab" shape/design. I have made 6 of them with different weight location to find the best result. Each swims well, but each acts a little different then the other. I'm going to look for the one that catches fish constantly, well as best as that can be done. Each of these characteristics will be kept in a book of information.

I hope this helps in some way,

Dale

Edited April 3, 2016 by DaleSW

[mark poulson]

Crankbait 101 has always been rounder body equals more roll.

If you combine that with raising the ballast, you should have a winner.

If you try to get roll with a flat sided crank, you'll be fighting the water pressure on the flat sides, which tend to keep it from rolling.

I've gotten tall bluegill spybaits to quiver on the fall by raising 1/3 of the ballast above the bait's centerline, but it only quivers on the fall or a very slow retrieve.

[JRammit]

Crankbait 101 has always been rounder body equals more roll.

If you combine that with raising the ballast, you should have a winner.

If you try to get roll with a flat sided crank, you'll be fighting the water pressure on the flat sides, which tend to keep it from rolling.

I've gotten tall bluegill spybaits to quiver on the fall by raising 1/3 of the ballast above the bait's centerline, but it only quivers on the fall or a very slow retrieve.

Hmm.. Ive had opposite results (flat more wiggle, round more wobble), ill have to go back and look more closely to my baits to find out why??

[hazmail]

Thanks Ben, I see it all now -- I have always done the opposite and hung the lure off a piece of cotton on the back (stuck on with a  apiece of tape) , moving it along until lure hangs level --In the end it's the same result whichever way you go and as we are all saying, a good starting point .

Pete

[RayburnGuy]

I'm sure you've heard the old saying that "you can't see the forest for the trees".  Sometimes it's the really simple stuff that throws us for a loop. At least for me anyway.  

 

Ben

[tendelta]

in the leading edge that is front  surface of the bait when you have a wider/ flatter surface area it has larger pressure action transmitted thru the entire bait, pressure being released as motion to the left and right with depth controlled thru lip or wing in aerospace tech, shaping the front of the bait to be more pointed removes the resistance, the natural forces of the bait in the water, being dragged back as it is pulled forward reducing the need to move, this is the same force seen in sail boats raise a sale into the wind speed drops, course changes and movement of the boat reacts to every wisp of wind, Sorry for so much, to much book lernning, but if you make the nose of the bait round and wide, it has more movement more surface area pulling back as the bait is pulled you, hope this help Reno Replogle    

[DiametricD]

Thanks for the insight Reno, everything you said makes intuitive sense to me when I think about it. I've just started studying this hydrodynamic world in detail, I have an academic background and love me a little book learning.

 

Also I moved the weight upward in one of my designs and that nailed my desired amount of "roll" action.

 

This is very addicting.

[Vodkaman]

DiametricD - I wasn't going to say anything. BUT, you state that you are going to get involved, so I had no choice.

 

Do a YouTube search for 'vortex shedding', and you will find vids that display the actions and forces at work to produce the 'waggle'.

 

Dave

[SW Lures]

I have just used my designs of a shad shape. COG is a great way to start but I tried ballast in different areas, different lip angles, lip designs, tow eyes in different locations and different body shapes. I learnt a lot, all in all they worked pretty well.

I was looking for deep running. You are talking about shallower running. Ballast location is important for you, also bring the ballast up or just over that "X" line can give you roll. My design is different from yours so what I have found will not really help other then what I have stated.

Take Care,

Dale