Small Swimbait Design

[JRammit]

so theres a ton of info on here about swimbaits... but majority of it refers to larger sized baits, 6",7",9" and up

i finally mustered up the courage to attempt my first swimbait build... i ended up with 2 baits i feel i can call a success since they both swim... but i know they could swim better

one is 3 1/2" (pictured) the other is 4" (not pictured).... the video shows each bait in action (best i could film from my shirt pocket)

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/gallery/image/15980-first-swimbait/

my question is, how many of the same rules for the larger swimbaits also apply to smaller baits?......... and what design aspects need to be changed?

i could probably figure all this out by trial and error, since i now have the ultimate "test tank" (pool)... but why not ask the panel of experts first?

[SW Lures]

Did you alter the bait JR from the first casting part of the filming and the second filming of the casting?

The bait seemed to move better. I'm surely not one of the experts about a swimbaits, just an observation.

Dale

[Travis]

Your post is one where the pictures should be included and the link of the video.  Most aren't going to bother with having to click all over to get to your stuff.  On top of this unless you open a second window or copy text in your current response everything is lost once it navigates to your picture if you are trying to do both (unless something I have set wrong always a possibility).  

 

The ratio of the segments is wrong in my opinion and results in the poor swimming action. Several threads here touch on the subject  but  always a good thing to have a ruler or caliper in hand and you can watch videos or see baits that are known good swimmers and quickly get some ratios.  

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/topic/23019-swimbait-segments/

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/topic/29606-ratio-of-segment-size/

 

 

Your video title nailed the reason to Dale's question.   Really have to work the bait in an attempt to get it to "swim".  Still doesn't want to swim well at those speeds and I would imagine with that rear feathered treble even further causes issues.   I messed around with the rations years ago to see what happen and managed to get to that point on your video.   For those test baits I just put a lip on the bait to make them use able again.  

 

[JRammit]

Dale, it is actually 2 different baits

Travis, i tried uploading a photo of each bait here, but my phone is having memory issues (takes me several attempts just to upload in the gallery)..... i can however link the video here

i wasn't sure about the dressed trebble, but so many other baits have some sort of tail material and doesnt seem to affect them

segment ratio is a good start... how about thickness ratio?.... my PVC stock is 5/8", just about perfect for crankbaits, but i wonder if i should be thinking thinner for swimbaits? if that would allow better hinge movement??

[RayburnGuy]

Just did a search in the archives and was going to link to threads about swimbait ratios, but Travis had already done so.

 

Here's a link providing info on swimbait thickness that should be of some help.

 

good luck,

 

Ben

[JRammit]

i do remember reading one of the threads Travis linked... im just a little off from 2:1:1...... my worry was ending up with a head so big, there wouldnt be enough tail left to move, but i can hit that ratio without that problem

Ben, i think u forgot to push a button (ha ha)

[JRammit]

ok, got the pic to upload finally

on the right (red stripes) is #1... it is 1.5":1.25":1.25" (4" total)... it is also the bait that wont swim at first in the video.... i thought this was due to the shape (but more likely the size ratio as y'all suggest)

so i built #2 (left, blue stripes) with the sloped nose... its 1.5":1":1" (3.5" total)... it does swim well enough to fool a couple of fish, but not good enough to fool me

just figured before i try again, I'd get a little input from here.... i did some searching first, as always, but like i mentioned most swimbait threads are about much bigger sizes

[RayburnGuy]

Ben, i think u forgot to push a button (ha ha)

 

Sorry about that. Guess I was having a Homer Simpson moment.

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/topic/14042-swimbait-prototype-and-body-thickness-question/?hl=%2Bswimbait+%2Bratio

 

Ben

[Nathan]

You may want to try 1.75" for head 1" for the center and .75" for the tail..(this is the 3.5" bait..) and I'd move the front hook hanger to the head section..also most of the ballast in the head..less in the center and none in the tail ..give that a shot..Nathan

[Travis]

Nathan has excellent points.  I try putting most of the weight in the head section also and decrease significantly on the way back to none.  Usually if you have a bait that swims well a feathered treble isn't going to kill it from my experience.   Just on baits that are less than ideal to start with

 

The baits I was messing with I fixed joints to make them one, weighted differently, etc.. all in playing around with seeing what wouldn't/would work.  I had to put a lip on it to make it a use able and even then more suited for the trash.   It caught fish but definitely didn't stay in the mix outside of that trip.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Travis

[SW Lures]

You said JR that you were showing both, my bad. Assuming the 4" bait was the second one that to me swam better. So it appears to fall in the width and section size.

I made a two segment bait that is made for Musky (8"). I have about 85-90% of the ballast in the head area. While during testing I found that the only ballast I needed in the tail segment was near the hinge area. The head is stable but has a slight movement back and forth as the tail sweeps around to follow. There are other very good attributes that came from this bait with the ballast locations.

These baits were so successful that I'm now getting ready to make two and three hinge baits once I finish my obligations. So your link Travis will be very helpful with the designs. I would have never thought of segment as a search word.

Thanks,

Dale

Edited August 11, 2016 by DaleSW

[JRammit]

i have 1/8 oz in the head, 3/64 oz in the middle (i use split shots, cause theyre already weighed for me) and no weight in the tail

same story with this one, it caught fish (well... a fish) and it does swim... but its only my first try and i know i can do better... especially with the resources available here

Dale, i had edited a video with text describing what was going on, but had to delete to make room for an antivirus app... forgot to put the text back in the new video

im in the shop now trying a few of the suggestions... hope to whip up a prototype before i have to go to bed tonight

[SW Lures]

I'm sure you will.

[JRammit]

prototype done!

i cant upload a pic because my phone says "low memory" (which i dont understand, im uploading not downloading) and i can't make a video because the phone is overheating.... dont ever buy an LG! this thing is a piece of junk!!!

anyway... i used the same body template, so not to change too many variables.... but i narrowed it down to 3/8" thick (5/8" previous) and used the segment lengths provided by Nathan....... man!... she swims like Michael Phelps now!!!

only problem is the sloped nose no longer helps pull it down, since i shaved the thickness off... it can only handle a moderate speed before breaking the surface... ez fix, more weight... also means i can use a more natural looking shape

maybe my phone will decide to cooperate tomorrow and i can get a video up

[JRammit]

wait a minute, i took another look in my gallery, dumb phone managed to save a little bit of footage... ill edit something up real quick

[JRammit]

here we go

one hour swimbait!

kinda weird camera angle, my arm is in the way, but you can still see most of the action

[mark poulson]

Here's a picture I posted years ago showing (kinda) my 2/1/1/1 segment ratio, the hinging, and the taper of the body so it's a modified V, 7/8" thick at the back and shoulders, tapering to 5/8" at the belly.

I found that tapering the bait removed enough buoyant material from the belly to let the bait swim upright at any speed, with no roll.

And I used the same ratio and taper no matter what length or size of bait I made.

I added ballast like Nathan said, and never in the tail, so it would be very buoyant and keep the bait level as it swam, instead of nose up, which is what I got when I weighted the tail, too.

I hope this helps:

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/gallery/image/4864-7-inch-hinge-and-pinjpg/

[JRammit]

Here's a picture I posted years ago showing (kinda) my 2/1/1/1 segment ratio, the hinging, and the taper of the body so it's a modified V, 7/8" thick at the back and shoulders, tapering to 5/8" at the belly.

I found that tapering the bait removed enough buoyant material from the belly to let the bait swim upright at any speed, with no roll.

And I used the same ratio and taper no matter what length or size of bait I made.

I added ballast like Nathan said, and never in the tail, so it would be very buoyant and keep the bait level as it swam, instead of nose up, which is what I got when I weighted the tail, too.

I hope this helps:

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/gallery/image/4864-7-inch-hinge-and-pinjpg/

i did see your name p0p up in several of the threads i found searching, i read how you install your hinges, sounds simple and i like it!...... that may be one of my problems, i currently dont have any screw eyes, i twist wire for every thing........ my hinges do feel a little sloppy

on the body shape, i used something i learned (or think i learned) from a recent topwater project.... notice the flat belly on my swimbait.... theory is, the surface with the most drag wants to rise up in the water first........ it seems to work, i can burn this bait w a 6.4:1 reel and it doesnt roll.. but the tempo of the swim doesnt match the speed, looks funny, like doing the moonwalk

[JRammit]

i forgot i made this little clip at the lake... much easier to see whats going on here

in the pool, i experimented with raising the ballast in the head section... it seemed to start swimming sooner that way, and i liked the slight wiggle it produced, so i went with it..... maybe that wiggle is taking away from the swim action

[mark poulson]

For some of my 3" and 4" swimbaits, I used small sst cotter pins and spinnerbait wire for hinges.

I only put a hook hanger in the first section, so the hinges didn't have any real load on them.

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/gallery/image/7237-3-and-4-inch-jointed-luresjpg/

Edited August 13, 2016 by mark poulson

[SW Lures]

JR that one seemed to do much better. Maybe it's the video showing it better. I bought some small hangers that would do this. I bought them from a supplier that I use because of paints, but most suppliers sells them.

I'm interested in the eye and pin style. Keeping the drag down between the eye(s) and body seems that it could be a issue.

Dale

[Vodkaman]

JR - your swimbaits are coming along very nicely, improving in leaps and bounds. I just checked out a few of your videos, your new testing pond is wonderful.

 

Under water camera box next

 

Dave

[JRammit]

thanks Dave!.. underwater box would be nice, more dependable than the ziplock bag i used before (ha ha)

Dale, u should try the v-joints, its not as hard as i thought.. i just do the cutting and drilling before i even cut the blank out, while its just a rectangle

Mark, im glad u mentioned using spinnerbait wire, cause thats what i used, wasnt sure how well it would hold up....... and i didnt think about the hook weight affecting the tail action, ill have to do a test without the hook and note the difference

[SW Lures]

In the Musky bait that I have done, I did them in double V (X cut) and a single V. Larger baits to me are easier, more area to work with. Yes JR, I will try some out on smaller ones once I'm finish with these baits. I have got to be finished by this week. I'm glade to hear that the smaller ones are not so bad.

Draw back to doing larger baits, more paint. LOL

I'm glade to hear that you are getting happy with them! That's all that counts anyways.

Dale

[Chuck Young]

I have a 3-1/2" crappie that has terrific action and starts right away. When I designed it I had no idea about proportions on a swimbait. When measured front to back the ratio is .154 : 1 : 1 : 1.54. I moved the attachment points up on the forehead. Now the flat top acts like a lip and gets the action going. You might want to try that next.