More Swimbait Problems...

[porkmeatballs]

Hey guys I was wondering if you could help me out. I made a gill, and when I test swam it, the swim was pretty good, although it did wobble on the burn. Anyone know how to fix this? The amounts were 6 drams of resin, 6 drams of hardener, and 6 drams of MBs. I added weight at the bottom of the first half of the bait. I was also wondering if too much epoxy is a factor. Does too much of it make the bait wobble like it did?  I really have no idea, and any thoughts would be amazing! Thanks!

[mark poulson]

I found that giving my swimbaits a V shape profile, so they are 1/2"+- at the belly, and tapered up to 3/4"+- at the shoulders, stops the wobble and any laying over on the burn.  Less buoyant material at the belly seems to make them much more stable at any speed.

[porkmeatballs]

I did cut down on the bait's stomach quite a bit... I've heard that putting as much MBs in it as possible would also help.  Is this true?  I'm also wondering about the epoxy still; is too much bad for the swim?  Thanks for the input Mark!

[porkmeatballs]

Still having trouble when I try to burn my swimbait. It seems like the bottom of my gill is steady, but the top moves from side to side. Should I put less weight in the head or put the weight higher up? I can use all the help I can get!

[A-Mac]

Would you mind posting a picture or a video of it swimming? This may help us figure out what is causing this.

 

I've made a few gill designs myself, but don't recall the top portion wobbling.  Lol, it actually sounds like a cool action if the rest of the lure is still swimming.

[stretcher66]

just curious why burning a swimbait seems to be so important to people?  every swimbait i have ever fished has been at a very slow retrieve.  I can't recall ever needing to burn a swimbait through the water during any fishing conditions i have been in.

[SW Lures]

I'm not trying to confrontational but I agree Stretcher66. Normally if I'm burning a bait in its to make another cast. I work my baits at a normal to a moderate pace. Stopping, jerking, twitching, walking or flipping the tip of the rod. I do try this when a fish is just liturgical and won't take the bait and follows along behind, but normally it's no help.

Back to the bait, bare with me here. My theory, at a high rate of movement through water the turbulence that creates a bait to have action happens far behind the bait and the force that is being generated that pulls the bait straight rather then allowing the action to just happen. The shape (design) of the bait must have a influence on this also. These three factors could be your problem rather then the material or ballast. I test and design like I fish, this includes trolling.

Just my two bits worth and good luck,

Dale

[mark poulson]

Burning a two joint/three piece swimbait over a point, or parallel to a steep wall, in clear water triggers reaction bites, especially in late winter/early spring prespawn, when the female are just moving up and are hungry. 

You can also use one to reposition fish on a point by throwing it over the point, first deep, then medium, and finally shallow, drawing the bass' interest, and getting them to move up to their ambush position.  Cast beyond the point, let the bait sink 10'+-, begin a slow swim back, and speed it up as it reaches the point.  It will get fish interested, and they will move up more shallow as you move the bait up more shallow.  Thank you Bill Siemental for telling me why that retrieve worked.

[mark poulson]

Still having trouble when I try to burn my swimbait. It seems like the bottom of my gill is steady, but the top moves from side to side. Should I put less weight in the head or put the weight higher up? I can use all the help I can get!

If your bait has a tall profile, and your line tie is below the mid point of the bait, that might be the reason for the side to side wobble.

I think the only way you can avoid that is to raise your line tie.  My trout swimbaits were short enough that this wasn't an issue, but my crappie/bluegill baits did wobble, too.  It wasn't a problem for me because I usually fished them fast, so any wobble just added flash.

 

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/gallery/image/4425-wood-vs-pvc/

[porkmeatballs]

Thanks for helping guys!  Yeah, I just want to make my bait have a good action at all speeds. I don't have any swim videos yet, but I do have a few pictures. 

[porkmeatballs]

Wups pictures didn't work. Here we go

Mark, thanks for the input! I'll try raising my line tie on the next one!

[mark poulson]

That is a really nice bait!!!!

Maybe the dorsal fin has something to do with the wobble.  I've never built a bait with one, so I'm just guessing.

Edited October 18, 2016 by mark poulson

[stretcher66]

Thanks mark for the info.  what i can tell from the picture it looks like to me with the hump of the back as high as it is,  that your centerline may be up higher than what you have your line tie. and that the line tie is barely higher than the bottom hinge at the joint may cause some issue, but not sure on that.  and as mark said maybe the dorsal is acting as a rudder if its not perfectly true.

[A-Mac]

That is a really nice bait!!!!

Maybe the dorsal fin has something to do with the wobble.  I've never built a bait with one, so I'm just guessing.

I agree entirely.

Beautiful bait. I've made gills before with the large dorsal fin protruding above the caudal area and the swim action was certainly hindered. I removed the fin from that section and it began to swim beautifully. You can get by with a very low profile fin, but it doesn't take much to impact the action. 

 

That would be my first crack at trying to fix your problem anyway. Good luck!

[SW Lures]

That's a beautiful bait. I hope you get it way you want it. I like the way you took your time to put details in. One of these are the profile change from the body to the shoulders, the scales running in line also (natural). Details are everything.

I truly have no luck with burning a bait in except for buzz or spinners. But I do have a shape similar to that one that I use for trolling, a gizzard shad. On that bait and all my print outs to start shaping the bait with, I put a center line on it. This bait of mine was made to dive deep so I moved the tie eye at this line. This was one of the best things that I did with this bait. It followed a lot better and gave it a radical wiggle (strong and aggressive). I agree with Mark on that location. Actually I put two lines on the paper pattern, that one and the nose to tail for shaping.

Very nice job no matter,

Dale

[mark poulson]

I thing Dale's idea of multiple line tie locations on a prototype is a good one for testing you bait.  Once you get it to swim the way you want it to, you can make your finished baits with that line tie location.

Maybe thinking of your bait as a rattletrap might help.  

That is a crank that you can burn without fear of rolling, and it's line tie is up on the back.

While I don't think moving it up to the dorsal area is the answer, moving it up a little onto the forehead might change the way it moves through the water, and make it wobble less.

In my testing of my attempt to make spybaits, I figured out that raising part of the ballast above the centerline of the bait in a 1 to 2 ratio, so a third was about the centerline, gave my baits the side to side quiver on the fall, a wobble on the retrieve, and still kept them from rolling on a fast retrieve.

Raising the line tie location will raise the centerline of the bait when it's retrieved, so it will also make the ballast even lower in the bait in relation to that centerline.  That should make it more stable/less wobbly, too.

Edited October 19, 2016 by mark poulson

[porkmeatballs]

Thanks for all the encouragement! 

 

That is a really nice bait!!!!

Maybe the dorsal fin has something to do with the wobble.  I've never built a bait with one, so I'm just guessing.

I really don't want to take off the fin if I can help it, so I'll see if I can do anything else before trying this

 

 

I thing Dale's idea of multiple line tie locations on a prototype is a good one for testing you bait.  Once you get it to swim the way you want it to, you can make your finished baits with that line tie location.

Maybe thinking of your bait as a rattletrap might help.  

That is a crank that you can burn without fear of rolling, and it's line tie is up on the back.

While I don't think moving it up to the dorsal area is the answer, moving it up a little onto the forehead might change the way it moves through the water, and make it wobble less.

In my testing of my attempt to make spybaits, I figured out that raising part of the ballast above the centerline of the bait in a 1 to 2 ratio, so a third was about the centerline, gave my baits the side to side quiver on the fall, a wobble on the retrieve, and still kept them from rolling on a fast retrieve.

Raising the line tie location will raise the centerline of the bait when it's retrieved, so it will also make the ballast even lower in the bait in relation to that centerline.  That should make it more stable/less wobbly, too.

I did try putting the line tie higher up the forehead on my first prototype. It still didn't swim very well, but this might have been because it wasn't weighted correctly. I'll try again on my next gill

[RayburnGuy]

I haven't built a lot of swimbaits, but some of the same principles of cranks and swimbaits apply. Body roll is directly related to the balance of weight above and below the centerline from nose to tail. When most of the weight is below this centerline you have a stable lure where the top of the bait doesn't roll/wobble. As you start increasing the weight above the centerline the body starts to roll from side to side. The more weight above the centerline the more body roll you will have until it becomes too unbalanced and blows out.

 

If it were me I would try adding ballast to the bottom of the bait to see how it swims before making any major changes to the lure. This can be done in several ways. Lead wire wrapped around the shank of the hook.............adding a tear drop weight to the hook..............taping lead to the bottom of the bait............etc......etc. This is a quick and easy way to see if ballasting is the problem and it doesn't harm the bait. If added ballast solves your problem then the repair is easy. Just drill a hole in the bottom, add more ballast and repair the small hole.

 

On your next build it might be a good idea to do your testing before paint and top coat. This will save you time and make dealing with problems less frustrating. It can be truly upsetting when you have to start making changes to a finished lure. 

 

just my ,

 

Ben

Edited October 20, 2016 by RayburnGuy

[SW Lures]

I think the lower profile fin could help. But I was wondering about your depth that you are looking for? Also what size lip width, length and angle you are using?

I have that particular one just a little above where yours is. I need to say something about my last post. I referred to a center line really it's a balance line. Ben helped with that one, I have one running the X line direction and one on the Y line. This helps me find where I want ballast for example. So that X line helps with the tow eye location according to all of the variables.

I make 3 prototypes now so I can move the tow eye around and the ballast.

I like that design, it's no more then something simple like lip angle, width, ballast amount or location. Test it and watch the action in shallow water and think about what has been stated, ex. If mine doesn't make sense to be the problem, move on. Your get it.

I wish I could tell you. Keep us informed.

Dale

[SW Lures]

LOL Ben you were posting as I was and I was making a point of balance in a bait that you taught me.

That's scary........

Dale

Edited October 20, 2016 by DaleSW

[porkmeatballs]

I haven't built a lot of swimbaits, but some of the same principles of cranks and swimbaits apply. Body roll is directly related to the balance of weight above and below the centerline from nose to tail. When most of the weight is below this centerline you have a stable lure where the top of the bait doesn't roll/wobble. As you start increasing the weight above the centerline the body starts to roll from side to side. The more weight above the centerline the more body roll you will have until it becomes too unbalanced and blows out.

 

If it were me I would try adding ballast to the bottom of the bait to see how it swims before making any major changes to the lure. This can be done in several ways. Lead wire wrapped around the shank of the hook.............adding a tear drop weight to the hook..............taping lead to the bottom of the bait............etc......etc. This is a quick and easy way to see if ballasting is the problem and it doesn't harm the bait. If added ballast solves your problem then the repair is easy. Just drill a hole in the bottom, add more ballast and repair the small hole.

 

On your next build it might be a good idea to do your testing before paint and top coat. This will save you time and make dealing with problems less frustrating. It can be truly upsetting when you have to start making changes to a finished lure. 

 

just my ,

 

Ben

Yeah I placed all the weight as low on the bait as I could.  The top just won't stay steady

 

I think the lower profile fin could help. But I was wondering about your depth that you are looking for? Also what size lip width, length and angle you are using?

I have that particular one just a little above where yours is. I need to say something about my last post. I referred to a center line really it's a balance line. Ben helped with that one, I have one running the X line direction and one on the Y line. This helps me find where I want ballast for example. So that X line helps with the tow eye location according to all of the variables.

I make 3 prototypes now so I can move the tow eye around and the ballast.

I like that design, it's no more then something simple like lip angle, width, ballast amount or location. Test it and watch the action in shallow water and think about what has been stated, ex. If mine doesn't make sense to be the problem, move on. Your get it.

I wish I could tell you. Keep us informed.

Dale

This swimbait will actually be lipless. Please correct me if im wrong, but the line tie is above the x and the ballast is mostly around the area where the x and y intersect?

[RayburnGuy]

Yeah I placed all the weight as low on the bait as I could.  The top just won't stay steady

 

Even if you placed the ballast as low as you could you may not have used ENOUGH ballast to make it swim properly with your current build specs. It all depends on balance. That's why I said to experiment with adding more weight to the hook and seeing how it swam with each increase in weight.

 

We're not really trying to fix this particular bait right at the moment. We're trying to find the problem so we can correct it on the next build. Adding weight to the belly hook is the least destructive thing you can do to the bait right now. You don't have to drill any holes or move line ties or anything else that would require repairs. 

 

If adding weight to the belly hook corrects the rolling problem and you feel the bait is too heavy to your liking THEN you can move the line tie higher in the bait. Moving the line tie up will change the center of gravity to a higher point which is sort of the same thing as adding more ballast because you now have more material BELOW the centerline.

 

Ben

[SW Lures]

That's exactly what I wanted you to tell me PMB. I have to agree with Ben, if it's lipless then the tow eye could be to low. The head normally is flat to help drive the bait down also.

Then Ben statement is correct again, we're working on the next bait/prototype. You have no Master yet. I test my proto's with nothing but a sealer. Never put so much effort in a bait until it's right on point. Normally for me the prototype that gets near to what I want, I use it as a profile model for future baits. Remember that the clear coat does add weight to the bait, D2T especially.

Again Ben maybe right about your ballast, it may not be enough and being lipless I wonder if it's in the right location.

Good luck & take care,

Dale

Edited October 20, 2016 by DaleSW

[porkmeatballs]

Ben,

So if adding more weight to the belly corrects the problem, then how would I keep the bait from sinking too quickly? Should I put more microballoons in the next one and then add the same amount of weight to the belly?

 

Dale,

Most of the ballast is along the bottom of the front of the bait behind the hook hanger. There is also some behind the pin in the second half of the bait

[SW Lures]

Take a look at your pic. with the nose down. Then look at the V in the tail. That to me is the X line, nose to center of the tail. Then there is a balance line which I will guess is just below or at the nose.

I'll give you my suggestion to try, if I'm wrong you can repair it. Bring the tow eye about where the shinny area of the eye is or have you had it that high on the head already.

Or

Did you use a tank test on its buoyancy. Is it rising quickly? If it's really fast most likely Ben's is right. This test with all of the gear on the bait helps out greatly on how your bait will perform. I was testing some last night. I keep most of my baits rising slowly to get out of trouble with structure. If you test this way, did the bait come to the surface slightly sideways?

You may have done all of this already. We're are just throwing out things to help. If it's the resin there are more knowledgeable members here that can help with that. I'm out of ideas and have gave you a lot of tricks to help. Try some of these ideas you never know.

I'll be reading but I have no more suggestions, later.

Dale

Edited October 21, 2016 by DaleSW