Primer questions

[Thiko]

There is lots of sealer/ top coat info here on the forum but I have tried to find info on what primers to use (or info about problems with primers) and not found anything. Maybe I searched wrong and this has been covered before.

I use a varnish as a sealer. It is a varnish made specifically for use on wooden boats. I have tried to find the English name. It is spar urethane or something similar I think.

The stuff is great for sealing. It doesn't crack and if applied thick enough (4-5 layers), it is completely protecting the wood from the water without any top coat needed. This sealer also does not crack easily. It is a little flexible, not rock solid.

But I do have problems with painting over this sealer. I have painted some lures with rattle can paint. I have tried to paint directly on the sealer and after applying a primer (alkyd based primer for wood and metal). Paint directly on the sealer is no succes. After drying I can just wipe it off with my fingers. With a primer it is a little better. I can make a functional lure (the sealer underneath stays good) but the paint comes off too easy for my liking.

I recently made lots of lures without paint. Just the sealer over the wood. They do very well and are very durable. No teeth marks in them even after catching big pike. I have also used rattle can painted ones but they have lots of teeth marks after one pike.

I really like to have a sealer that is waterproofing the wood and does not crack easily (like some harder sealers do). I prefer a sealer that can stand a topcoat/paint failure. So I like the sealer I use. But I am interested if there is a primer out there that can stick better to this kind of sealer. Or if I apply the primer in a wrong way. I dry the sealer 48 hours before applying primer. Sand lightly before applying primer.

I hope to make some of my fish catching lures also gallery worthy in the future . Thanks for any help.

[BobP]

There is no finish regimen for crankbaits that is not a "witch's brew" of coatings from different manufacturers, so we mix and match trying to find a regimen that is compatible and in which all the coatings will harden and lay flat on the lure.  The simplest I know is to undercoat with slow cure epoxy, lightly sand to promote paint adhesion, paint the lure, then topcoat with the same epoxy.  Since epoxy does not contain any reactive solvents and is chemically inert after curing, it is a good choice.  Not knowing precisely what coatings you are trying to use and not having tried them ourselves , we cannot really say why you are having problems except to say that different solvent based coatings can react with one another to cause each other to fail to harden, or to bubble, etc.  As a first step, I'd lose the primer and paint directly onto the lightly sanded sealer with acrylic latex, then topcoat.  If you still have the problem, your sealer and topcoat are incompatible.

[Thiko]

Thanks. I will try that.

[ravenlures]

You keep saying wood but what kind of wood would help.

Wayne

[Thiko]

In the Dutch language wood from multiple species of pine can be sold under the same name, but it is very likely to be Scots Pine.

[SW Lures]

I shape my bait then use a minwax wood hardener/sealer. I lightly sand the sealer after a few days of curing. I prime paint this after wiping down the sealer with a tack cloth. The primer is auto air sealer, I know thats contradicting. I don't consider this sealer as that, I actually think of it as a primer.

I have had cracking, but this was from me rushing to get the top clear coat on. Blistering has never been an issue with painting. I use water base paints mainly.

Dale

Edited May 24, 2017 by DaleSW
Typo

[Thiko]

Thanks!

I have a question about this wood sealer, does it work with toothy fish? What I mean is, does it work well when the topcoat gets damaged? The wood sealer looks like a very soft sealer or am I wrong? Or is that auto air sealer making the lure tougher regarding bite marks?

[mark poulson]

If you want a bait that won't be ruined by water intrusion from bites, us a water proof material for your lure bodies.

I've had barricuda scratch the chrome on jigs, and they aren't much different than pike and muskys.

 

[BobP]

If a topcoat is damaged and is covering acrylic latex paint, the paint will absorb water and try to push whatever topcoat you used off the bait.  The undercoat aka primer would not be affected unless it was also water based or was also penetrated.  I don't fish for toothy fish but if I did, I would consider using lacquer based paint which is waterproof but requires using a protective mask when spraying.  If all of the coatings you use are waterproof a fish would have to penetrate all of them to ruin the bait.  It's really a matter of how durable you require your bait to be.

Edited May 26, 2017 by BobP

[Thiko]

So far pike do not ruin my unpainted lures with 4-5 layers of the transparent varnish that I also use as a sealer. They do scratch the paint if I use the same varnish as top coat. I used rattle can paints, not water based paints so that is good. My fear with those wood sealers would be that it would be penetrated as soon as the topcoat + paint is scratched. Or do these wood sealers soak deep enough into the wood for a tooth mark to be no problem? Using a wood sealer seems easier than brushing on 4 layers of varnish!

I have read a few of the pvc articles here and looked a bit for pvc products in our home depots. Found nothing. I think there is a German guy from this forum who uses pvc so it must be available. I'd be interested in a pvc product I can get here in Europe!

 

[SW Lures]

When I seal the bait it's to water proof it the best that I can and yes it pretty tuff. The primer/sealer works as an adhesive for the paints and to give a richer shade to the painting. Then I paint the bait with mainly water base paints. The last coat is my clear coat. The sealer and clear/top coat maybe multiple coats. Usually I put 2-3 sealer coats

I use hard woods unlike most here. This is what I consider as the solid foundation to the whole of making the bait(s). Sadly nothing is bulletproof, time and the teeth takes its toll. 

When I started making wooden baits I tested everything that I used. The ones here that was helping me can vouch for that. I have put these to the test against many fish and conditions. The minwax is not to pricey, give it a try.

I'm happy and satisfied,  

Dale

[Thiko]

I can not find any minwax products over here. I might give a few other wood sealers a try. It sure looks a lot easier!

 

[mark poulson]

PVC baits don't require sealers, are totally waterproof, and hold up to toothy critters in the salt.

It machines and carves like wood.

[Thiko]

I have looked into that briefly.  I have seen that  you recommend Azek but that is as far as I know not available over here in Europe. Are you aware of any Europeans on the forum who use pvc? I am sure there is a product out there somewhere that works. I assume most pvc blocks sink?

[mark poulson]

55 minutes ago, Thiko said:

I have looked into that briefly.  I have seen that  you recommend Azek but that is as far as I know not available over here in Europe. Are you aware of any Europeans on the forum who use pvc? I am sure there is a product out there somewhere that works. I assume most pvc blocks sink?

I think Dieter Meiberg (Diemei), who is from Germany, has used it.

The PVC I use is buoyant.  The decking is as buoyant as poplar, and the trim is as buoyant as med. heavy balsa or pine.

If you have the equivalent of Google in the Netherlands, look up PVC decking and/or building materials.

[Musky Glenn]

Thiko, I believe the product you are refering to is "Spar Varnish". This is different chemically from urethane. They used spar varnish for the finish on wooden boats for years and had to go back and redo them every few years. I never found primer, sealers or products made for the home wood work industry to be very suitable for actually water proofing anything. Any end grain really makes it hard to get a water tight seal by soaking in and sealing the wood pores. It seemed to me that a product that lays on the surface and covers the end of the wood cells (end grain) did a better job of keeping the water out. Keep in mind also that after the first coat of "whatever" on the wood, you are technically painting and adhearing to the first coat of whatever and not to the wood.  As a test, take a few wooden blocks and measure the thickness and width accurately coat with your first coat of whatever, let dry completely. Throw them in a bucket of water over night and measure them the next day and see how much they changed size if any. If they changed, they soaked up some water and your coating didn't do its job. Length wont change much but thickness and width will. That is the easiest way to tell if your methods work or not.

[gliders]

Thiko,can you get ronseal wood hardner in Netherlands?  Think its the same. I use it to seal certain lures to allow me to ballast each one in water, works well...glider