New lure I'm working on

[Fish_N_Fool]

  Here is a basic Idea I have for a Pike/Muskie bait I want to make. I want a ton of action in the bait which is why I gave it 3 different ways for it to get the bait to move. First is a large bill at a sharp angle to make it almost a wake bait, but dive about 3ft deep hopefully. Second is to make it a broken back bait with a double hinge so the tail can move side to side but not up and down, and last the oversize curl tail. that will be screwed to a wire screw lock coming out of the bait. The rear treble hook will have one point buried in this to hold it in place. OK my questions are; what should I make the body of the bait out of that will give it good action and get down to the 3 foot or so depth on retrieve, but still hold up to toothy critters. Do you think this bill angle will work for what I'm after? Are there any molds already out there for a tail design like this?

Edited December 26, 2017 by Fish_N_Fool

[Nathan]

One problem will be that a tail that large will have too much drag and kill any action from the joint..Nathan

[Travis]

Agree with Nathan.     Once you start adding different "tricks"  they don't necessarily equal more action.   They have to be in agreement.

If you take a look at most commercial baits of this design you will note the curly tail is much smaller as not to create the drag mentioned above.  They also typically use  single joint attachment on that rear section to also not kill action.    That tail probably should be reduced by 50% based on the specs you have there.    That tail is more in line with something you might see on a 12 inch or larger bait (may still be a little larger).   

I am sure some of the musky/pike guys can jump in on this one as not a bait I have fished or built.

Edited December 26, 2017 by Travis

[Anglinarcher]

Ouch, I will come off as a contrarian here. 

I don't normally disagree with Travis or Nathan (Please don't retaliate Nathan - LOL), but it can be made to work.  You might need to alter the ratios some to tweak it.

And, just to keep up the trend (oh boy), the lure is NOT NEW.  Sorry Fish.  River2Sea made the lure for some years that looks almost exactly like your sketch.  A little deeper profile on the front lure section, but a shallow diving (2 to 3 feet) lure with the same extra large curly tail.  They did not use the treble to hold the tail though.

I know where you live so see if you can contact Seth Burrill in Spokane.  He is the one that use to have the fishing show on TV there in the region (Anglers Xperience).  He is the one that got me into that lure for the Big Pike.  I contacted River2Sea and  bought all they had left at the time (maybe 4 or 5 rainbow colored).  I still have some of them but they are in storage and I cannot find them right now.

So, the lure will work, does work, and for the life of me I don't know why they stopped making it.  Perhaps with better marketing it might sell well now.  PS, it worked on the big Walleye on Roosevelt in December at night as well.  I give it high ratings.  I just wish I could remember the name.  I know it went out of production around 2010.

[Fish_N_Fool]

The tail i was planing to make it thick on the edge of the inside curve and thin on the rest of it so it will straighten out and just ripple is what I had in mind for it.  I think that will work. Nobody said what kind of wood or product I should use to make this out of ? Ideally I would like it to end up near neutral buoyancy  but still not dive to deep.

AngArch I ever said it was new, just new to me. I know there have been baits similar to this  in the past, but I'm not trying to copy any bait.  I just drew this up as something that I thought would work. I'm not real interested in buying one similar to this as I wanted to create something my self like all my other baits I make are my creations.

Oh btw I know Seth, I thought him everything he knows.  lol

[BobP]

Poplar seems popular for musky guys.  Were I doing it, I’d probably try paulownia since it’s both hard and light at 18 lbs/cu ft.  But it can be hard to find.  If you want “near neutral” buoyancy, that opens it up to using a mold and something like Alumite, or consider PVC trim board, which is not water absorbent.  They can chew on it but can’t make it sink.  Lots of choices.

[mark poulson]

I am prejudiced, but I'd recommend using AZEK PVC decking.   It is not quite as buoyant as their trim board, but it is much stronger, and I find it's just about the same buoyancy as poplar.

There is a sticky at the top of this forum page that tells why I use it.

In a nutshell, it is strong, buoyant, and totally waterproof.  It machines and carves like wood, and takes paint well.  That's what I began using (thank you JR Hopkins) when I made jointed swimbaits, and I have never had one fail.

Edited December 27, 2017 by mark poulson

[ROD W]

Love it. Build it and try it. The best way to learn if thru trying and failing and don't give up

[Anglinarcher]

3 hours ago, Fish_N_Fool said:

........... Nobody said what kind of wood or product I should use to make this out of ? Ideally I would like it to end up near neutral buoyancy  but still not dive to deep.

AngArch I ever said it was new, just new to me. I know there have been baits similar to this  in the past, but I'm not trying to copy any bait. ..................

Oh btw I know Seth, I thought him everything he knows.  lol

Last things first.  ROFLOL - Seth never told me that story.  If/when we talk next I'll have to ask him.  By the way for the rest of you that are wondering about our inside joke, Seth is on YouTube and had a fishing show for a few years.  The crashing economy killed the show a few years ago  but he is a heck of a good fisherman and teacher.  I don't think he ever made a lure in his life, but he sure could modify, adapt, and work them.

OK, I thought you were thinking your idea was new, as in new new.  Still, my point is that I know it will work because I have some that work and are so very similar.  I tried to find them online and failed, so they must not have been popular for River2Sea.  I may have been wrong on the center joint though.  The more I think of it the more I am not sure.  The joint should just provide more freedom for the front and tail to work separately.  

As for material, the sky's the limit.  Of course Rod hit the nail on the head.  Try, learn, try again.  Mark has mentioned PVC which is an excellent option.  It is easier than wood because it does not have a grain to deal with and it is always consistent.  I found it harder to locate, but Home Depot has some in your area (not the same brand Mark uses).  and Bob has mentioned the popular Poplar (HEHE).  Not as consistent and I find that I need to customize the ballast on each one, but can't go wrong with the traditional old standby.  Paulownia was impossible for me to locate in the Spokane region, but there is a woodworking shop in Spokane Valley that might be able to get it, or you can get it online.  I cannot help with that one.

Now you know I am a resin guy, but I would start with PVC and get my shape first.  You can also make by molding a rough shape using Alumilite White with the max amount of microballoons.  This is as easy to shape as PVC and easier to get of you already have materials on hand.

I would make my mold from the blank I made.  I would use Alumilite White, Rotomold style, for the surface and use 610 foam for the core.  Once the proper amount of Alumilite White, Ballast, and 610 foam is figured out, it is extremely repeatable.  You could also use Alumafoam (same density as Cedar) and add ballast as necessary.

Every single method mentioned above will work.  The resin is most repeatable, but would take the most time to get it dialed in.  The PVC is the easiest IMHO for single samples.  In retrospect, Rod said it best.....

2 hours ago, ROD W said:

Love it. Build it and try it. The best way to learn if thru trying and failing and don't give up

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by Anglinarcher

[Fish_N_Fool]

How hard is the  PVC decking  to carve? Does it sand and carve like wood?

 I think I might try to at least make the prototype with it If it is not as buoyant as some other materials to me is good as I want the bait to nearly suspend. Where would I find a scrap piece of it?

 

[DingerBaits]

Super easy to carve, although the dust sticks to damn near everything. I use PVC to carve masters I want to mold since there is no sealing that is needed. Just carve, sand, prime, paint...

[Anglinarcher]

The PVC is near neutral to begin with.  With hooks, it will sink slowly, depending on the weight of the hardware.

[mark poulson]

On 12/27/2017 at 10:48 AM, Anglinarcher said:

The PVC is near neutral to begin with.  With hooks, it will sink slowly, depending on the weight of the hardware.

Both the AZEK Decking and Trimboard are buoyant.  The decking similar to poplar, and the trimboard is like med balsa.

I was actually able to order my AZEK through Home Depot.  They don't stock it.

Here's a link to an online supplier:

http://www.vintagewoodworks.com/pvcboards.html

Don't be concerned if you can't get the thicknesses you want.

You can make thicker material by laminating pieces, using either PVC glue or super glue.  Just be sure the mating surfaces match, and clamp it for an hour, just to play safe.

I'm made lots of baits from laminated pieces, including 130 mm whopper ploppers,  and none have failed.

[Travis]

On 12/27/2017 at 8:56 AM, DingerBaits said:

Super easy to carve, although the dust sticks to damn near everything. I use PVC to carve masters I want to mold since there is no sealing that is needed. Just carve, sand, prime, paint...

 

It is some messy stuff for sure.   I rarely use it because I just don't find it enjoyable to work with.  

As far as scrap piece you can source it from about any of the big box home improvement stores.  PVC trim board will usually run about 25 bucks for an 1" x 8" x 8' section.  I typically used the vinyl brick molding  or preferably 2"x2" trim board (12 ft runs 20 bucks)  because I end up with a more substantial piece after getting  rid of the outer "skin" and it runs cheaper" and swim baits about the only thing I use this stuff for.  Around here can frequently get it in the damaged section for much cheaper as it ends up dented and ends all buggered up.

 

 

[DingerBaits]

PVC glue or PVC epoxy works great to laminate it just as Mark said. I believe Mark is the King of PVC if you decide to go that way. It is great stuff for making proto types. I usually buy a board or two of it when I go to Menards just to have it around. 

 

[Anglinarcher]

1 hour ago, mark poulson said:

Both the AZEK Decking and Trimboard are buoyant.  The decking similar to poplar, and the trimboard is like med balsa.

I was actually able to order my AZEK through Home Depot.  They don't stock it.

Here's a link to an online supplier:

http://www.vintagewoodworks.com/pvcboards.html

Don't be concerned if you can't get the thicknesses you want.

You can make thicker material by laminating pieces, using either PVC glue or super glue.  Just be sure the mating surfaces match, and clamp it for an hour, just to play safe.

I'm made lots of baits from laminated pieces, including 130 mm whopper ploppers,  and none have failed.

Good to know.  The stuff THD had on the shelf was not nearly that buoyant.

[mark poulson]

Yeah, I found it on their website, and had it delivered to my local Home Depot.

[Anglinarcher]

4 hours ago, mark poulson said:

http://www.vintagewoodworks.com/pvcboards.html

Seems pretty inexpensive this way as well.

[mark poulson]

Yeah, and they have more of a size selection.

[Anglinarcher]

On 12/27/2017 at 6:56 AM, DingerBaits said:

although the dust sticks to damn near everything

I spray my area with that stuff they use on cloth to stop static cling.  On specific things, I rub a dryer sheet on it.

It seems to stop the stuff from sticking to everything.

[jonister]

Don't try turning a laminated piece on a lathe.. I also wish the dust wasn't an issue..