Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
LaPala

Flat-sided Vs Rounded lures... musings?

47 posts in this topic

:D Skeeter, I won't blame you for being :huh: , this thread had side tracked so much it's not what it was anymore.

Anyway, we are refering to the surface actually on the lure body itself which is behind the tow-eye - sort of like a second lip hence pseudo-lip. It started with Mallard's banana lure "blog" :) He should be able to key you in as he's the one who started it. I was curious enough to try a few experiments, nothing conclusive yet but looks promising.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting thread guys. I learned alot, confused a little and now have a dumb question. I have never attemped to make a flat-sided bait: If I took 2 identical baits (size and lips) but one was flat sided and the other rounded, would they dive the same depth? Would one dive better due to more or less resistence? Thanks, I always learn something from this site.

Tally

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would go for the rounded lure.

The rounded lure would be less bouyant (assuming you kept the weighting the same too); so less counter-acting force to pull it upward back to the surface - theoratically it should dive deeper.

However there are always all the other governing forces/factors involved like weighting, body shape/profile that has to be taken into account :). Basically when talking about flat vs rounded, I'm looking at it more on the side to side movement, the roll & intial "kick" into action retrieval speed. I don't see it as affecting depth as much because for the desired action, the weighting/balancing for a flat vs rounded lure would be different and this changed the equation for depth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Skeeter:

I have been trying to identify the characteristics that make a great swimming top water bait. I have been throwing ideas off LaPala and have learned much from him. Your post on weighting and lure balance also helped me take a big step. I can not begin to thank you for sharing.

I will post the results of my development in the next couple of weeks. It will be old hat for most of you, but I think it will help some beginners.

Tally:

It is my strong opinion that using rounded sides (in conjuction with other factors like weighting, lip and shape) enhances the movement of the bait through the water. Others will disagree, but it is just my opinon about how I think a bait should move.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mallard,

I'm glad that something I had to say actually helped someone. It is what we are here for. I hope everything is a success.

Oh, by the way....... Anyone can controll the action of either a flat or a rounded lure with the lip. I promise that I can get either a round or a flat lure deeper than any bait found on the market. I can make either one move any way that you like. Wide or tight, allot of roll or a little bit of roll, it doesn't matter. It is all in the design and angle of the lip and the placement of the tie.

Skeeter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For what it is worth, and I think this is relevant to something in this thread, about a year ago I made a bait just to test conventional topwater wisdom; a basically flat sided topwater walking lure. I smiled on the first twitch: it walks much easier than a Zara Spook, and also remains in one place much longer. It is all in the weighting (or balance, or center of gravity).

Dean

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh' date=' by the way....... Anyone can control the action of either a flat or a rounded lure with the lip. I promise that I can get either a round or a flat lure deeper than any bait found on the market. I can make either one move any way that you like. Wide or tight, allot of roll or a little bit of roll, it doesn't matter. It is all in the design and angle of the lip and the placement of the tie.

Skeeter[/quote']

I STRONGLY second that.

However, in designing a lure, treat it like a lady. I can make her do whatever I want (this would be rape) but it's better if it's something she already wants to do & I just give her a hand in making it easier for her to do it (now we are making love). :D:P PS: Please don't take this too literally B):)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh' date=' by the way....... Anyone can controll the action of either a flat or a rounded lure with the lip... ...It is all in the design and angle of the lip and the placement of the tie.

Skeeter[/quote']

Now you tell me! It took me a month, a dozen test baits and 20 post to figure that out :cry: Seriously, I would have given up in frustration if not for the help and advice from this board. I actually learned a lot about controlling the action of a bait and I am now making better lures as a result.

Thanks to all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shawn: No offence intended. Just seem like a good analogy about not forcing a lure to do something with just lips but design the whole action into the lure.

Mallard: Hate to do this to you, but in the post right after you posted your banana lure pic, I did tell you so :)

Mallard: snipped.....

I'm not boasting but with the right combination of lip shape' date=' size and angle (plus a little bit of weighting & balancing) I can make any lure swim any which way I want. snipped......[/quote']

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LaPala,

Son, quit making love to the plugs and make them do what you want. It is a piece of wood, not a living decission making thing. Your designs in the whole process makes the lure either good or bad. I make a bait do what it should do so that it puts fish in the boat. It is that simple.

Skeeter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Skeeter:

Yeah I agree, the acid test for a lure is landing fishes.

I've envied the lure you posted in the galleries, such craftmanship & everyone of them look like perfection in every detail. They are GOOD; in fact EXCELLANT. Don't you think you've brought a piece of dead wood to life?

Perhaps I'm too much of a romantic. The process of creating one - designing the profile & shape; determining the weight/balance of the blank, trying out various lips/angles and finally the finishing/top-coat - every single step is a labour of love. After finishing a prototype, I'm forever refining it, cup the lips a little bit, maybe shorten or lengthen it a bit, change the angle, move the line-tie position, perhaps make the shape slightly skinnier, taper the tail a bit more... and one good day "a child is born". It has the desired action, seem so effortless to crank, responds to your rod tip movements, cast a mile in the wind... doesn't all this labour makes the plug attain a live of it's own?

Give me a Skeeter plug design template & all the weighting/balancing, lip design... can I reproduce it? I should say no, look-alike yes. Why so because she's your baby, you know every nuance of it's creation. It's in the hand of the one who created it, I'll never have the Skeeter's touch. That's why handcratffed lures are handcrafted lures. The creater's mark is indelible.

Hope I'm not getting on nerves here. I have great respect for craftsmen and I respect your craft. I just wish you wouldn't just slide if off as a dead piece of wood. Your lure to me is a living work of art - much better than paintings that just live to grace walls; it has a purpose - catching fish; and does it well.

Oh... I do go on....... excuse me for this slip of romanticism. :oops:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mallard: Hate to do this to you, but in the post right after you posted your banana lure pic, I did tell you so :)

Mallard: snipped.....

I'm not boasting but with the right combination of lip shape' date=' size and angle (plus a little bit of weighting & balancing) I can make any lure swim any which way I want. snipped......[/quote']

You're right LaPala, it was your post that got me moving in the right direction. :oops: I had been applying Skeeter's comments on balancing a lure with much success, so his post validated what you told me. I am kind of hard-headed so I need to hear the obvious over and over, but now I have leraned. Balance the lure correctly and then you can use the lip (or in my case head of the lure) to create the action desired.

If I am off-based or if I missed something, please let me know, you may save me another month of research!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LaPala,

Maybe I seemed to harsh. I do appreciate good craftmanship. I honestly understand making an excellent lure can be a very personal thing. Thinking about it I guess your right. As lure makers we do give the wood life to a point. I guess that is why most of us do it. True bait makers want to proove something to ourselves. We want to see if we are true craftsmen. I can appreciate that.

Skeeter

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:D :oops: Blame it on TU. :D

It's fun though, having somewhere with a bunch of people who are as passionate about cranks as I am. Hopfully none turn into crank-case like me. :lol:B)

Mallard: you've got to tell me what you're up to first. :D You experiments coming along okay?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a summary of what I learned from all my hard work in October:

First off - I am hard-headed and need to pay more attention to the experts here.

Second - I am hard-headed and I need realize if I have a good idea, someone else has probably already had the same idea 50 years ago.

After more than a dozen prototypes and a bunch of testing I have come up with shape for my banana lure that I really like, only to realize I just redeveloped the South Bend Teas-Oreno! :oops: I could have just copied the bait and been done in a weekend! :(

I took some pictures this morning but they did not turn out, I will try again tomorrow and have a more complete report.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mallard: you've got to tell me what you're up to first. :D You experiments coming along okay?

Just stealing your good ideas :wink:

I did some pseudo-lip experiments too & found shaping it into a shallow U-shape groove makes it more effective and the lip proper in front has to be at an angle & enough to tilt the pseudo-lip to it's functioning angle; so varying the front lip angle/size I sort of got the "lure" to have a slightly different action when it gets to a certain speed.

scoopfacebanana.jpg

scoopfacebanana.jpg

scoopfacebanana.jpg

scoopfacebanana.jpg

scoopfacebanana.jpg

scoopfacebanana.jpg

scoopfacebanana.jpg

scoopfacebanana.jpg

1063_thumb.attach

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mallet: Oops did I miss spelled... since you called yourself a hardhead twice, I'll just leave it as it is. :lol:

Seriously, I know your frustrations. Talk to a Lucky Craft representative here over the last weekend & an idea that I was brewing on my computer for quite sometime.... & he showed me a prototype that Lucky Craft is gonna launch in 2005. :!: :pissed: Theiers definately will be much more detailed & nicer then mine with some exotic materials; but the basic concept is the same... grrrrr.

I guess there only so much shape & action that a plug/lure can have that'll still consistantly catch fish. The tried & tested shapes & size are all out there with a little bit of variations here & there. I've attached a pic showing the traced outline of 4 "different" lure stacked togather. They look so different but basically they are quite the same. See the jumble of the stacked outline, they only differ by slight dings & dents here & there. If you try with other styles like shad, minnows, Rat-L-trap shapes; similiar ones are all over the place. Maybe the subtle difference makes the difference? I'm not so sure. It differentiates the different manufactures/makers YES. It makes a lot of difference in fishability - I doubt it. Like I've said b4, there are "sweet-spot" for shapes/profile/lips combination. You want a Rapala Fatrap to have a tight swimming action like a Rapala ShadRap? I can change the shape & balancing to get to that.... but a Fatrap shape with tight action & little body roll... again I doubt it's fish catching ability, tight action just don't really go with a fat lure.

:) I got carried away again. Hope tihis might point you... somewhere.

Anyone having the same musings as I do?

Edited:

PS:Mallard: Notice you just posted your new lure as I post mine :) You're welcome to take the ideas & improve on it.

compare.jpg

compare.jpg

compare.jpg

compare.jpg

compare.jpg

compare.jpg

compare.jpg

compare.jpg

1064_thumb.attach

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guys, I have been so busy this last year I haven't had a lot of time to participate in these discussions like i would like to. But I had to give an old seaman's out look on this subject......Every object in water moves in six directions being----surge , sway , yaw , pitch , roll , and heave. It does not mater what the object is, a stick , battle ship or crank bait . With that being said we can only control three of them.That being surge,(fore and aft movement) sway (side to side) and yaw (rotating on an axis so that the head moves in opposite direction of the tail). Without getting to deep into stability these three movements that we can control are done so by changing the (VCG) vertical center of gravity,by moving weight up and down. (LCG) longitudinal center of gravity, by moving weight fore and aft . (TCG) transverse center of gravity. by moving weight port and strb. How far to move and the direction of the weight all depends on (COB) center of bouncy, pressure from water pushing up on the object due the displacement of the object. On board we do a stability calculation each time we load and right before we sail and it have to be dead on. Just think of the baits we all have built with too much weight in the wrong place it doesn't run right or may even roll over. That kind of mistakes on board can sink a ship. Hope I didn't confuse any one. Feel free to ask questions and I'll do my best to explain.

BOB

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

captbob said an axis where the head moves different from the tail. After picking a proffesor of fluids blau blau brains at the local uni this is the idea I've come up with just wish I had the time to do it.I make a flat jigjointed lure which if may say moves pretty good with an anchor point at the nose.Now if I make two anchor points top and bottom a third of the way back on the first piece triangulating with wire trace to the line I've changed the axis point. This thing is really gonna move------isnt it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Captbob: Just had the time to come back to these musings :D You're dead on about this COB thing. And with the size of crank- baits its balancing is even more delicate. Then there's concept of moving balast which alters the COB subtlely which then produce some interesting "hunting" action to a crank. (I'm a scuba diver so I have the pleasure of observing cranks in action from all angles.)

Do you have the equation or software that do all these calculations for ship balast distribution?

I can imagine the formula to be really complex if we want it for a crank. We have to contend with surface drag, COB, fulcrum point (tow-eye and "balast" distribution), vortex/turbulance resistance, lure shape hydrodynamics, lure material density... the list goes on. But just getting some of these factor into a calculable would be a great asset.

Maybe we can adopt your formulas to a crank & make weighting crank bait more a science than trial&errors. Even just pinponting the COB would be a great asset .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0