Jointed swimbait question

[Swimbait4life]

I recently made a jointed glide. Bait has great potential. Swims great at fast speed but seems to want to just drag through the water strait? Any input is greatly appreciated!

[Chuck Young]

1)Try moving the line tie up 1/4". 

2) Use it as a jerk bait at slow speeds.

3) Recess the weight - but wait for suggestions from others about weight distribution. 

4) Throw some salt over your shoulder. 

5) Have another shot.

I love that relief carving btw.

[mark poulson]

I found that having the two sections fall horizontally, and at the same rate, was the key to my glide baits swimming in the slow S pattern (thank you to all the TU members who helped me figure that out).  That way, there is no friction in the hinge joint, so the bait reacts to the water passing down it's sides (vortices) much more.

[Anglinarcher]

Welcome to the forum Swimbait4life.  Good to have you here.

I have been studying that style of bait for about 10 years now, and as an engineer, I can tell you that the water flows that create the action are fascinating.  I am still not convinced I know even half about the complexity of it.  You can do a search on this site for Vortex and on Google for Hydrodynamic flutter or Hydrodynamic Vortex to get an idea of the interesting science in it.  

Still, there are some things that are common with this type of bait that will help.

First, a very low placement of ballast seems to work best.  You have rough attached the weights low, and you will want to keep it low when you embed the weight.  Once you get it moving left and right, it will roll out without this low placement.

Next, water flows are critical so embedding the weight will make the water flow better.  This will help more at low speeds.

Chuck is Funny, but his items 1 and 3 are good.  but, the line tie relocation is best because it is easy.  Sometimes a little movement makes all the difference.  The good thing about this is that it is easy and you can move it back.  I suspect that you will find your current placement close to or even acceptable.

Mark is also correct in that this style of bait 

5 hours ago, mark poulson said:

I found that having the two sections fall horizontally, and at the same rate, was the key to my glide baits swimming in the slow S pattern (thank you to all the TU members who helped me figure that out).  That way, there is no friction in the hinge joint, so the bait reacts to the water passing down it's sides (vortices) much more.

 

Mark has overstated it a little IMHO.  I find that I get the best results if the front section is slightly faster sinking then the back.  Dead equal and the bait will work but want to ride high in the water as you retrieve it.  Front light and the lure will run straight to the surface.  But, I said slightly, and I mean it.  To much and it will impinge the hinge joint.

If I wrote a book on the subject I could not cover everything, but I think Mark may have alluded to the first thing I would check, and that is hinge freedom.

The hinge must be as close to frictionless as possible.  The joint must be very free to move.  If it is moving at faster speeds but not slower, this may very well be the problem.  Check it out.  Does it stick at all?  Even out of the water?

Check these things out first.  Get back to us and we can go from there.

[Swimbait4life]

Thanks for all the input guys! I made a few small adjustments and will be swim testing again tomorrow 

[Matt Moreau]

First off I am not an engineer or expert by any means. I have played with glide baits and while yet to master will give u my humble opinions...

 I agree with everything above but want to add that the least amount of weight you can get by with in the tail section the better. Slight nose down fall is good for +5 ft... if u fish shallow and slow u can get by with dead even. Also weight in tail should always be as close to the hinge as possible while keeping it as low on bait as possible. Like stated above the easier or less restriction on the hinge you Have the slower u can fish the bait. A lot of variable go into that simple little statement though as u can see. Another idea that may help along these same principles is if you happen to make another I would Lengthen the front section and shorten the rear a little. That will take more mass out of the tail and allow it to swing easier. 

[froggerbass]

Anybody got any input on the gap size between the sections? Seems like if that gap is say .5 cm it’s going to need to be impacted by a larger force to make it move as opposed to a gap of say 1 cm. Wrong? 

[Anglinarcher]

16 hours ago, Matt Moreau said:

weight in tail should always be as close to the hinge as possible while keeping it as low on bait as possible.

Very good point.  Don't stress about it too much, but close is good.

16 hours ago, Matt Moreau said:

lot of variable go into that simple little statement though as u can see.

LOL - Yep

16 hours ago, Matt Moreau said:

Lengthen the front section and shorten the rear a little. That will take more mass out of the tail and allow it to swing easier. 

I find that the joint is best placed between 40% and 60% from the rear, but closest to 50% seems to give the best Sinusoidal action.  Compare the proportions to the River2Sea S-Waver.  Actually, the tail does not swing, it follows the front which moves left and right.  I know that this seems counterintuitive,  but my videos slowed down show it does that.  I wish that we could post videos on the site, but if you search the S-Waver or similar baits to see the action - just view them slowed down.

Still, if you want to take down the mass of the tail, you can taper the bait from front to back.  It improves the vortex some.

I just don't want to suggest too much too fast.  Start with the line tie, it is easy, fast, and you can screw the eye back where it was if it does not work.  Check out the hinge to make sure there is no impingement.  Then embed the weights with the information suggested above.

THEN, if still necessary, we can tweak it with altered joint locations and profile adjustments.  I think we can get it to work without all of that.

 

 

[Anglinarcher]

8 hours ago, froggerbass said:

Anybody got any input on the gap size between the sections? Seems like if that gap is say .5 cm it’s going to need to be impacted by a larger force to make it move as opposed to a gap of say 1 cm. Wrong? 

I like going to the S-Waver by River2Sea for examples on this type of bait.  Notice that the joint gap is about the same as Swimbait4life's.

I tend to like keeping the gap smaller and I have a design I am doing that keeps the gap smaller, but there is only so much you can do with a V-Joint design.  

I do believe that having a smaller gap to keep the water of the vortex from flowing through can help, but I do not believe that Swimbait's gap is to much, and I don't believe it has anything to do with their problem.  On some of mine I have pushed the gap wider to allow more lateral movement and they worked fine, even better.  Now I widen the "V" more.

I suspect more research could be done on this subject, but as alluded to before, there really is not a force moving the tail left or right, it follows the front of the bait, which moves left or right do to reduced water resistance and the vortex alternates back and forth.  

[Matt Moreau]

2 hours ago, Anglinarcher said:

Very good point.  Don't stress about it too much, but close is good.

LOL - Yep

I find that the joint is best placed between 40% and 60% from the rear, but closest to 50% seems to give the best Sinusoidal action.  Compare the proportions to the River2Sea S-Waver.  Actually, the tail does not swing, it follows the front which moves left and right.  I know that this seems counterintuitive,  but my videos slowed down show it does that.  I wish that we could post videos on the site, but if you search the S-Waver or similar baits to see the action - just view them slowed down.

Still, if you want to take down the mass of the tail, you can taper the bait from front to back.  It improves the vortex some.

I just don't want to suggest too much too fast.  Start with the line tie, it is easy, fast, and you can screw the eye back where it was if it does not work.  Check out the hinge to make sure there is no impingement.  Then embed the weights with the information suggested above.

THEN, if still necessary, we can tweak it with altered joint locations and profile adjustments.  I think we can get it to work without all of that.

 

 

Good points my friend. I am no expert like I said just tested a lot of failures! LOL

So for some good banter lets explore this more and I think this is still on topic(If not lets make a dedicated topic)...From my testing I think we are on the same page. I like a 60/40 ratio front/rear, note this is without a tail on it. With a tail I want the bait to be close to 50/50. In the picture above it looks to me like the bait is more of 40/60 ratio and with a tail on it the rear section is going to me considerably longer. If you measure an S-waver profile it is exactly 50/50 with the tail on it. And while they are the OG and work like crazy I do not feel they can match some of the custom guys out there that have figured it out. 

I do agree that the tail seems to "Follow" the front around but I think it does much more than that in reality.  Think about it, what initially makes the head section turn? Why do some baits just go straight unless the action is forced? The tail is what initially kicks out and creates the "Wave". Once in motion it "Follows" the head around but still is the driving factor to get the bait to kickout or wave and the more it moves the easier it can do this. I just feel with a 60/40 its a more natural movement and with less mass it can kick the bait out easier and sharper. 

As for the "Gap" I go back and forth on this. I tend to think keep it as tight as possible but like you said I have baits that work where it is clunky and wide. Look at a deps 250 its considerably wider than most others yet is a staple for glide baits.

We really need a dedicated topic on this and hydrodynamics! Where is Vodkaman Dave we need you!!!

 

[Swimbait4life]

I swim tested it again and it’s WAY better.  Baits wants to glide only to the left but it’s even and stable. It long glides to the left then short glides to the right and repeats. I’m shaving a little off the right side to see if I can even her out. 

[Anglinarcher]

 

1 hour ago, Swimbait4life said:

I swim tested it again and it’s WAY better.  Baits wants to glide only to the left but it’s even and stable. It long glides to the left then short glides to the right and repeats. I’m shaving a little off the right side to see if I can even her out. 

Excellent.  I would bend the line tie a little first to see if I could get it to even out first.  But it sounds like you are on the right path now.

[Anglinarcher]

5 hours ago, Matt Moreau said:

lets make a dedicated topic

I think that I would like that.  Feel free to start it.  Now that Swimbait4life has got his working, I think it might be a good idea to focus on his issues, if he still has them.  

 

5 hours ago, Matt Moreau said:

S-waver profile

 

5 hours ago, Matt Moreau said:

And while they are the OG and work like crazy I do not feel they can match some of the custom guys out there that have figured it out.

So very true.  I have a 4 inch that swims up to 4" to each side for a full 8" "S".  I bet there are others out there that can beat mine.  Mine does not want to glide as much as I want; I think because it keeps wanting to turn.

5 hours ago, Matt Moreau said:

tail seems to "Follow" the front around but I think it does much more than that in reality

I can explain that, but if I had a test tank with tracer trails it would be easier to verify.  

5 hours ago, Matt Moreau said:

We really need a dedicated topic on this and hydrodynamics! Where is Vodkaman Dave we need you!!!

Start the topic and PM Dave (Vodkaman).  It sounds educational.  

[Swimbait4life]

This thing is around 8 inches and on a slow retrieve it’s gliding like 10 inches and with a good cadence is going out a couple feet

[Anglinarcher]

You have a winner there.    Larger baits will have a wider swim and a longer glide, but still, that is awesome.  

[porkmeatballs]

Sorry to resurrect such an old thread, but I have a different glide bait problem that I could use some help on... I made a jointed glide that's about 8 inches long and glides decently well, but when you give it a few twitches, sometimes it will favor gliding to a certain side. For example, sometimes it will glide left, left, right instead of alternating from side to side. I've been playing around with it, but can't figure out what's wrong. The only way that I can get it to alternate is to time my twitches perfectly. I can use any help that I can get!

[Anglinarcher]

8 hours ago, porkmeatballs said:

The only way that I can get it to alternate is to time my twitches perfectly.

Actually, this is pretty normal.  If you do it too early, or too late, then the motion is either not complete enough, or too much.

[porkmeatballs]

Ah I see. Other glide baits have this problem as well, then? It just seems kind of annoying when the bait keeps going to the same side.

[Chuck Young]

It may not be the lure, but the nut that holds the handle on the rod.

[porkmeatballs]

Haha maybe it's just me!