best way to prime with zinsser bin?

[ddl]

did you use a brush,a sponge or a special airbrush model dedicated for priming?my lure will be too big for dipping . correct me if im wrong but i think it would be a bad idea to use my eclipse to spray some zinsser? maybe a big spraygun could be a good idea? if so what would be the best option for a cheap model ?  i would like to skip the primer post sanding that's why spraying sound like a good option but maybe im wrong ,maybe all the paints coats could remove the line from the brush ??

thanks

[Chuck Young]

There are so many better options than BIN to seal a lure. Bin is a laquer - takes a long time to fully cure. As far as laquers go, it is not the most waterproof. I recommend sealing raw wood with: 1) runny super glue, 2) 30 minute epoxy, 3) moisture cure urethane 4)concrete sealer.

Of these options, the epoxy will cure in 30 minutes guaranteed. All the other options - including superglue - may take much longer to cure. 

[ddl]

it's not a sealer ,it's a primer

[BobP]

Brush marks on a bait will be transmitted through the thin layers of airbrush paint, so where possible you want to avoid brushing unless the coating is self leveling or you can apply a smooth surface with a brush.

As for "sealer" versus "primer",  as far as I know, a primer's job is to promote adhesion of the next coating to the underlying substrate (wood, plastic, or paint).  It's necessary on metal surfaces so it can etch the metal for a mechanical bond to be formed.  On wood, I don't see the need for a primer between the wood and water based acrylic paint to promote adhesion.  I do see a need for a sealer, primer, undercoating or whatever you want to call it  to waterproof the wood so the paint will not raise the wood grain.  And if that coating is  white, it can also serve as the color basecoat, which is a nice "two fer".  So to me, using a solvent based BIN on raw wood is really waterproofing and basecoating rather than priming.  Tomayto, tomahto.  What I really care about is whether the BIN will waterproof and protect the wood as well as other stuff like epoxy, MCU, etc which may be more durable.  You have to answer the question of how much protection is enough for yourself.  Whatever you choose, it's true that your acrylic water based paint finish will last exactly as long as you can keep it protected with the topcoat you apply over it.  If water gets into the paint, it rehydrates, expands and pushes the topcoat off the lure.  If water gets past the paint and the "primer" or "sealer" or "undercoating" the wood expands and does even more damage.   

[ddl]

so if i add epoxy mixed with denature alcohol i'll not need to add autoborn or zinsser bin ?

[BobP]

I just use epoxy cut with a very little denatured alcohol, then lightly sand it to remove the shine and give it some tooth.  Of course, then you have to shoot a good solid color basecoat of acrylic paint as you begin painting.  Player’s choice.

[gliders]

I use bin after sealing, as a white primer prior to paint. Use a cheap auto type spray gun, lays down very well. Dries flat. I find it very good for priming large lures very quickly. Had zero issues with water damage even when top coats are pierced, which they are regularly with pike. I've left a floating  lure (which had caught lots of pike) attached to a bhouy underwater at mercy of waves etc. For 3 months as a test. No issues - cleaned the algae and dirt off and good to go......

[ddl]

impressive . i'll follow your tips,i'll order a cheap mini spray gun

[hazmail]

On 5/2/2018 at 3:17 AM, BobP said:

Brush marks on a bait will be transmitted through the thin layers of airbrush paint, so where possible you want to avoid brushing unless the coating is self leveling or you can apply a smooth surface with a brush.

As for "sealer" versus "primer",  as far as I know, a primer's job is to promote adhesion of the next coating to the underlying substrate (wood, plastic, or paint).  It's necessary on metal surfaces so it can etch the metal for a mechanical bond to be formed.  On wood, I don't see the need for a primer between the wood and water based acrylic paint to promote adhesion.  I do see a need for a sealer, primer, undercoating or whatever you want to call it  to waterproof the wood so the paint will not raise the wood grain.  And if that coating is  white, it can also serve as the color basecoat, which is a nice "two fer".  So to me, using a solvent based BIN on raw wood is really waterproofing and basecoating rather than priming.  Tomayto, tomahto.  What I really care about is whether the BIN will waterproof and protect the wood as well as other stuff like epoxy, MCU, etc which may be more durable.  You have to answer the question of how much protection is enough for yourself.  Whatever you choose, it's true that your acrylic water based paint finish will last exactly as long as you can keep it protected with the topcoat you apply over it.  If water gets into the paint, it rehydrates, expands and pushes the topcoat off the lure.  If water gets past the paint and the "primer" or "sealer" or "undercoating" the wood expands and does even more damage.   

 

      ------     "Tomato'' here Bob.

Pete

[Chuck Young]

Clearly, I am not a big fan of laquers as sealants on lures. Priming is a different animal - to provide a consistent color base. Your basic opaque white water-bourne paint does that for you. But sealing off stains / contaminants is a part of that. Bin does that, but laquers are very inconsistent in their cure time. There are better options for sealing the wood itself, so water will not penetrate it. 

[gliders]

Chuck, I think there's confusion across countries  with the names and meanings of various solvents and laquers etc. Bin is alcohol based pigmented shellac. I use it -as opposed to airbrush primers because when doing a lot of large baits it gives a perfect white base coat/primer over scuffed, epoxy sealed wood lures. Because I shoot through a spray gun ,the bin can be used in much thicker consistency than possible with an airbrush /airbrush primer. One coat on an 8 inch lure takes about 10 seconds, 2 coats 30 minutes apart gives complete coverage. Let dry for 1-2 days depending on temperature etc. I've also used cellulose  (laquer? ) baed primer with same equipment with similar results. .

[Hughesy]

What about dipping and turning?

[Chuck Young]

You are right. We use the term shellac here also, and that is what bin is. I suffer from a disease that affects my brain, so I get terms confused sometimes . I have used Bin in house painting. But it is only suitable on the interior as far as I know. Drying time is not consistent, depending on temp, thickness,  circulation, and humidity. Put a coat over the top of it before it cures completely, and you end up with a cracked finish. 

I often apply a scale texture to my wood lures. Bin would obscure that, since it goes on pretty thick. 

Using a water based acrylic (Createx is what I use) takes about 10 seconds per coat, including drying time (with hair dryer).  Yet it goes on so  thinly that the scale detail remains so that future coats can utilize the detail to provide contrast. As far as durability goes, Acrylics have been used in exterior paints for at least 50 years. I am not sure about shellac. That being said, I would never fish a bait painted with acrylics without a topcoat. So maybe the point is moot. If the topcoat remains intact, so will the primer and paint. Unfortunately, that is not always the case. 

If something is working for you on a consistent basis, by all means keep doing it. I am just throwing my two cents out there so that others can consider the pros and cons. Maybe they are painting plastic or wood baits with fine scale detail. Bin may not be the thing they should use. However if you are painting a wood bait with a smooth finish, perhaps with some wood grain still showing, Bin might be just the thing. 

 

[ddl]

bob zinsser bin is not to be used as a sealer and don't have to be used that way at least about water protection. i think we don't care if the lure smell smoke or like a dog lol.anyway the name is clear enough B-I-N® Shellac-Base Primer

i have made multiple test and that thing stick really well to a lure sealed with epoxy,and  acrylic stay awesomely well to it. here is a lil vid that show is primer property

• Shellac-base primer-sealer
• For interior and spot exterior use
• Greatest stain sealer
• Seals knots and sap streaks
• Seals pet, smoke and musty odors
• Sticks to all surfaces without sanding

 

[gliders]

Hey chuck, I'm not implying your confused, I was saying the terms laquer, laquer based etc. Can suggest different things in different parts of the world. I personally only use bin on lures I intend to be smooth. Only on sealed lures, and always with multiple epoxy top-coats. When it comes to bin curing unevenly indoors and the re-coat issues when used on walls etc. , I have never had this issue when spraying my lures with the method I described - not once on many hundreds of lures. Regardless of multiple top coats, every pike lure will get pierced through the layers to the wood, and I've not had any extra  issues because bin was the primer. Like I said ,I've had similar results with cellulose  ( laquer? ) primer. ..

[Chuck Young]

I am not easily offended by remarks voicing a different perspective than mine. Nor am I offended by people correcting my mistakes, as you rightly did. Thanks for your sensitivity, though. Nobody can know everything. And this is a learning forum for all involved. 

I comment a lot on this sight. That doesn't make me smarter. I can only comment on what I already know (or more often than not, think). Listening to views different than mine, and adjusting mine accordingly, is  what will eventually make me smarter. 

[gliders]

Hey chuck, I started a thread a while back to try to get some sort of glossary of terms regarding solvent based laquer, laquer based etc. Is a quagmire....When Mentioning laquer over here, there's talk of crushed beetle wings !......glider 

[Chuck Young]

Usually when I crush beetle wings, the rest of the bug comes along with it. Nothing in that green goo resembles any kind of clear coat. Personally I prefer a quagmire to Beetleguese.