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Vodkaman

Lure Design, what is it

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I have posted this here because only searching minds would find it.

Everyone who ever built his/her own lure, strives to come up with something original, game changing, name in lights, millionaire. There is nothing wrong with dreams, and they are actually possible.

You do not need a doctorate or a PHd to have an original game changing idea.

I am a perfect example; I have only a humble HND qualification in aeronautical engineering, but I figured out one of the massive enigmas; what the function of fish scales was. Unfortunately, I was not the first to make this discovery, but I did make it independently. I also have other ideas not fishing related that are not proven as yet.

My point is that you do not have to be scientifically qualified to make life changing discoveries. As members of the relatively uneducated masses, we have the same level of imagination as the geniuses of this world. Without the constraints of conformity, we have no rules to adhere to. Being a scientist or an expert is a distinct disadvantage. All we have to do is recognize a problem, a deficiency, an improvement, or in our case, a different lure action that will catch fish.

One of my biggest bug-bears is people who tell us that there is nothing new, it has all been done before, and you are re-inventing the wheel. This is just not true. I am continually amazed at what past lure designers have come up with, but only now, in this technological age, are we starting to understand how things work.

Fluid dynamics is a BIG statement, the study of which requires a mathematical mind of a genius. BUT, the understanding of the basic principles only requires the viewing of a few YouTube videos, no math required.

Search for ‘vortex’, ‘vortex  street’, ‘Kármán vortex street’, view the videos and you will already have the knowledge required to invent your new lure.

Every lure’s action can be explained by vortex technology. Understand vortex technology and you are on your way.

‘Trial and error’ has always been the way with fishing lure design, but it does not have to be that way. The chances of hitting on a solution with trial and error are infinitely small compared with having the simple knowledge of vortex technology.

Vortices are the driving force behind ALL fishing lures. Figure out the basics (not difficult) and then apply the knowledge to what you want to achieve (or talk to me).

Dave

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Dave

When I started I did not understand vortex technology and you know I still don't. I just think that the lip and the head about 1/4 of the lure is where all the action is, after that the lures hardly change. Color and a little flash make the lure. Now I am no engineer just a old guy that started from a 1/2" dowel and moved up to a 10" deep diving musky lure, but I did a lot of trial and error as I changed from one lip to another, now if I understood vortexes I could have save a lot of time. So thanks for all the information that you pass along it is needed and appreciated BIG TIME. 

Wayne

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Thanks Wayne. It is all knowledge whether from a book or experience.

Which is better? - I would have to say experience. But, add the two together and you have something even more powerful.

Dave

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Dave -

  Being a product designer by trade... I deal with this all the time... it's hard to innovate at times if you stick or are forces to utilize the same methods, shapes, processes, costing, etc etc everyone else does....  Kinda why most mass produces baits (hard or soft) are kind of the same... its not just the physics - but the manufacturing as well.

  Is it possible to make something new and innovative - sure - that's my job every day for my clients....  but it's usually a bit harder to do than if you are able to borrow or search out a different method/technology which brings a new element or variable to the equation - or break a "current" rule or variable of the category/area you are working in.  90% of what i work on is "boxed in" within constraints of current machinery, process, cost , line speed, etc, etc.... we are talking line speeds in production of 1200 items a minute and billions of items a year... and we still find ways to do something new and special - but it's tough at times... but on projects where we can break one of the category/current variables - usually you can do something really unique!

  So the way I look at lure design is two fold - one - what's working now that just makes damn good sense to borrow from... sort of the reuse old ideas part.... but also really understand what "rules" do NOT apply to me.... For instance - I'm working on some pretty cool softbaits that need a 3 part mold PLUS a machined insert to get what I want.  To produce my bait at a huge scale / fast would be a nightmare or really really expensive to develop the molds and tooling to open / seperate / close fast for high speed production.  BUT -  I'm able to break the line /production speed rule cause I'm only making for myself so taking 1 minute to demold 2 baits isn't an issue and therefore I can have something really pretty cool that hasn't been done before - even though it complies to pretty much all the other variables/constraints of current softbaits! 

 

 J.

 

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SlowFISH - I understand the complexities of injection tooling having been involved in automotive fender design. Tooling is a massive investment, but it also makes the lure more difficult to replicate. Of course, if the lure is successful on the market, there is no complexity that will stop the Chinese reverse engineers from stealing your work.

I have lures that I could have taken to production, but the thought of having my work stolen, and feeding these thieves with money that should have gone into my pocket, No thanks.

My best opportunity is if I crack the triple point hunter. Because it will be a fine balance, this would be very difficult to replicate for the reverse engineers.

It is always tempting to go to the Chinese manufacturers to produce your lures, but there is little to stop them from selling your work on the side using your tooling. This happens a lot.

Dave

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2 hours ago, Vodkaman said:

SlowFISH - I understand the complexities of injection tooling having been involved in automotive fender design. Tooling is a massive investment, but it also makes the lure more difficult to replicate. Of course, if the lure is successful on the market, there is no complexity that will stop the Chinese reverse engineers from stealing your work.

I have lures that I could have taken to production, but the thought of having my work stolen, and feeding these thieves with money that should have gone into my pocket, No thanks.

My best opportunity is if I crack the triple point hunter. Because it will be a fine balance, this would be very difficult to replicate for the reverse engineers.

It is always tempting to go to the Chinese manufacturers to produce your lures, but there is little to stop them from selling your work on the side using your tooling. This happens a lot.

Dave

LOL.... this happens all the time with our clients... we had Client a few years back that had some cool car cleaning products but nothing with IP or unique about their offering other than the style/aesthetics.  They had a Chinese factory produced parts for them - the factory determined after 6 months they'd make more putting their own name on the product and selling thru Walmart right along side our clients product.  There was literally NO difference between the items other than the color and logo. Our client had to dump the product line within months as their sales tanked.

 

I agree - things that need a very high level of accuracy are much harder to knock off then those which have a far greater level of tolerance.  The scary part is as I mentioned above - where it isn't "other" producers knocking your stuff off... but your own factory bumping production up and selling it around you!

 

 J.

 

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Indeed. I would never go to China with my product. I would always keep it local so that I could keep an eye on things. I would be more likely to use low tech methods using mold masters and employ my own people for the production.

I would not be looking to sell millions, thousands would be enough to support me and my team.

Dave

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1 hour ago, Vodkaman said:

Indeed. I would never go to China with my product. I would always keep it local so that I could keep an eye on things. I would be more likely to use low tech methods using mold masters and employ my own people for the production.

I would not be looking to sell millions, thousands would be enough to support me and my team.

Dave

I also would not source out work to china I would only use American sources hey dave do you have any work at home jobs here I am looking for a side job doing any related to fishing lures?     

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Bigblue2 - only the occasional development work, but I will keep the offer in mind :)

Dave

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Yeah Dave we will keep your products in the states!! ;):lolhuh:This thread really is awesome though. 

I work for a company that makes some really cool stuff sold around the globe. Some customers overseas wanted samples and within a year this complex crap was stolen. I believe it when I see it, but it really is sad. 

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Interesting thoughts. Though Dave you could also say it’s all based on drag ;)

 

If you are interested, look up TRIZ. Really interesting research on inventing and design innovation.

 

As for business, I’ve never sold a lure, but of course have thought about it. I decided that if I ever did it would have to be based on quality. The lure itself would have some sort of intrinsic value that brings pleasure to the owner, beyond just action, etcetera. If you look up some of the Japanese boutique top water “Surface Game” craftsman like  Budd & Joey. It becomes about the enjoyment of fishing with a fine instrument, not just the catching.

 

clemmy

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Reading your post is like reading something out of NASA. I swear you would be amazing at giving speeches. I guess now I have more passion to try and create my perfect lures. I was never really the best at it. For some odd reason, I am more skilled in knife carving. 

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Luredbaitz - I am so sorry about that. The message was to be quite the opposite, that you do not need to consider yourself 'smart' in order to come up with something original. Simply understanding what shapes the water is making when it passes a plate or surface is sufficient.

Perhaps I should do one of those 'Ted-ed' lectures on YouTube :)

Knife carving is an invaluable skill in this game. Welcome Dublin.

Dave

Edited by Vodkaman
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You know I don't really see the point in any of this. I wish some of us would have gotten the bright idea to try and build something to help us fish at night. Not all of us have the best memories of fishing at night, right? Would you happen to have any idea on some glow in the dark fishing lures? Or even any comments on the product? I read up about these "glow in the dark fishing lures" at http://huntingfishingplus.com/best-glow-in-the-dark-fishing-lures/. There I got the explanation I needed to fish at night using a glow in the dark lure. I did know about these lures for a while now. I got the idea from my neighbour across the street. Fishings seems to be the only thing he finds interesting. He would give me long lectures on all the fishing tips needed. He is using a Shrimp Sabiki by JSHANMEI. He even tried to teach me how to make one. If you're into this sort of thing there is a video guide on how to create this lure https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXmsdAODXYE. Quite frankly, it blew me away. It was like I thought I knew all there is to know about fishing and then I get put to the test and bam, turns out I don't know as much as I thought I did. I didn't even know that with different lure colours you get different results for fishing. I'm definitely going to try out everything I read up and try it out this weekend. If anything I can come back and keep you updated. Hope you found something interesting in what I had to say.

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Luredbaitz -

I have just written a lengthy reply to the above post. I broke my rule of writing anything more than a paragraph in ‘Word’. Now I must try to remember what I wrote.

I am not sure what ‘point’ you are referring to, my text or yours. The real point is; understand the basics of water movement and exercise your imagination.

As for commercial lures, I cannot help you, as since I started this lure design journey, I have not purchased a single lure. I have not found luminescent paints locally, I would certainly be interested in experimenting with such. I have designed a flasher lure, but not built it as yet. I can only add that you should choose your colours according to the depth that you intend to fish; red, orange, yellow for shallow lures, blue, white for deep lures.

There are many opinions on colours and form. My personal opinion is that it is all about action/vibration and colour and form are of little consequence. This is purely my own opinion and is not up for discussion.

I loved the shrimp video, a perfect example of the application of imagination. I knew who the author was as soon as he spoke his first words as I am also from Liverpool, Paul Adams.

I enjoyed your text and look forward to more feedback. Wishing you success.

Dave

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Wow, Dave you sure as heck love giving long lectures. :yay: I do appreciate the reply though. I guess this is where you and I are different... I buy products from the market and you create them using your imagination. I think it might be too late for me to change. I wouldn't even have any clue on how to start. The only thing that anyone in my family has ever done is knife carving. I think I am the first so-called "fisherman"  but a very plain and simple one. 

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The place to start is to make a list of the attributes that you consider desirable; what swimming action, narrow or wide, hunting or straight, depth, profile, length, weight, rattle and so on. Throwing distance is important too, especially for shallow swimmers.

Consider the shop bought lures and how would you like to improve them.

Dave

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As members of the relatively uneducated masses, we have the same level of imagination as the geniuses of this world.

I agree with your sentiment, but disagree with the implication of the sentence.  Education and genius are neither inclusive nor exclusive.  

 

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CNC - my point exactly. Perhaps I did not write it clearly enough, not my strong point. We have just as much chance of coming up with something unique, a new idea, a solution to an enigma as anyone else regardless of smarts.

Dave

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The drive to create and to catch fish with something that I thought up is why I make lures. To create action out of an object not painting is what is my focus. My paint skills are lacking really lol

I would say my lure making style is completely redneck stubborn trial and error. I started messing around with building lures 25years ago. Up until I joined this forum I just had an idea and tried it. Simple tools and sand paper to make it happen . I don’t know all the fancy vortex stuff but I focused on hand carved lipless baits for a long time and  picked up an understanding how a simple dip, ridge, and angle changes everything 

I have built a lot of rejects(with the knowledge that can be found here I could probably fix them) and some that worked amazing. My biggest problem was I could not duplicate them. Recently switching to resin pouring is solving my issues. Unfortunately some amazing one off lures I could not duplicate in the past are lost to the fish or snags

Unfortunately I find it difficult to explain how to make things move and how to cause multiple points on a lure fight eachother to create different actions and I don’t always understand why it works lol

 

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Voodkaman I also have to give you credit for your ability to explain the technical aspect of lure making. It has helped improve my understanding of things as well. Unfortunately it has also sparked new ideas I have to try now lol

Good news my present prototype has been moving forward without out a single hiccup because of it. In about a week it will be tested to see if the fish agree 

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Vodkaman, thank you for your technical expertise and being able to break it down Gumby style so I can follow along.  

I started this hobby with a goal in mind.  I wanted to be able to make a lure that looked and acted as realistic as possible but was also functional enough to catch fish.  I haven’t been at this as long as most of you so I have done a lot of research, most of it here on TU.  I have spent time, more than I would like to admit drawing out ideas only to do more research and find out my ideas were not all that original, there goes fame and fortune :cry:. But, I would also like to say that I have learned a lot, things I would assume the average lure maker doesn’t know.  Conversations such as this have sparked quite a few ideas, more than I have the time to peruse.  The knowledge I have received from reading up on vortices here on TU, just enough to give me an idea for a lure I have drawn dozens of concepts of over the last couple of years.  Just recently I got to the point where I think I have something close enough to try as a working model, time will tell. 

Edited by KennyP

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VM,  I got annoyed a long time ago when you were trying to analyze and describe hydrodynamic flow, but some folks seemed to want you to stop.  I rather enjoyed your discourse on the subject and wished they would just move on if they didn't want to try to absorb it.   It was some great stuff.  I've looked at a number of similar subjects since and I think always understood them better because of your attempts here to explain.  

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Hillbilly voodoo – Good comments. In my early days of lure design and building, I too had a ‘wall of shame’, lures that just did not work. Once I understood more about what the water was doing, I was able to take the lures off the wall.

Duplicating a successful hand carved lure is a problem. I am actually considering writing a post about ‘reverse engineering’, the fancy word for ‘copying’. The root of the problem is that it is very difficult to accurately duplicate the exact 3D shape, it will look close, but any slight errors will change things.

You can get all the features close enough by eye; shape, lip size and position, ballast location, hook positions, tow eye position and so on. But, the one thing that you have not duplicated is the buoyancy of the lure. If you get say the width wrong by 0.5mm too big then the volume of the body increases by as much as 5%. Add to this all the other body shape dimensions that were very slightly off, and you end up with a significant error, and a lure that floats or sinks faster. Also, add to this any differences in the wood density.

If the buoyancy is wrong it does not mean you have to alter the body shape, you can simply adjust the ballast to achieve the required buoyancy.

To determine the buoyancy; you could float the lure and make a note of how much sticks out of the water, or you could measure more accurately by performing the ‘Archimedes dunk test’ which I posted under the same name. Yes, sounds complicated, but once you have done it a couple of times it really is easy.

Each feature of the lure generally has two adjusters. As stated in the previous paragraph; body shape and ballast are matching adjusters, and ballast is easier to adjust than body shape. Another adjuster pair is lip length and tow eye location, decide which adjuster is easier to adjust.

KennyP – thanks for the nice comments, and good luck with your project.

CNC – this stuff is not for everyone, it is just another way of looking at things. People know what I write about, if not interested then simply move on. Experience is a powerful tool, but it takes many years to attain. On the other hand, knowledge is a lot easier and faster to attain. Put the two together.

Dave

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KennyP

A bit of advice with your pursuit of a life like action. Something I have found when someone is building a lure is they have this vision on how it should move. We often get caught up in trying to make the lure track perfect and keep consistent action. What I have found over time these are not the lures that out produced others. They look good and often do catch fish but  they are just OK.

The most productive lure I ever created now sits snagged on the bottom in 160ft of water. It out produced anything I trolled for Lakers. It was actually a reject that split well drilling a pilot hole and rather then tossing it I just did a random re shape. It had a random action I cannot duplicate. It seemed to fight it self every which way and randomly take off 4ft to the side then track back to center. It was a complete spaz and far from natural 

What I am getting at is in your search for a perfect natural action don’t overlook your mistakes a long the way. You maybe trying to fix a lure that will out produce the one in your mind.

Always let the fish be the judge 

Edited by Hillbilly voodoo
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