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robert giberson

paint peeling off!!!!

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8) hi guys was wondering if any could shed any light on why a bait that i sealed with 2 coats of white high hide primer, then paintetd( rattle cans), then put 3 coats of spar varathane on it and after 3 days of drying the lure got a bubble on its back( like a peeling sunburn), i poked the bubble and next thing i know it all peeled of like snake skin, any reason for this, find it strange it only happend once but dont want it to happen again!!!!!! thanxs for any help! Rob 8)

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what was done before the steps listed? what you do before the primer/sealer is more likely where the problem occured.

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Guys that understand the chemistry of the paint such as Shawn and Rich can be of more help than I can Robert. I have had this problem though when I got a heat lamp too close to the baits when they were turning and also with some woods....mahogany in particular. I have no idea why. That was about as useful as a three-legged chair huh, lol.

Jed

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8)thanxs jed , that was funny and yes you are still more helpfull then a 3 legged chair!! L.O.L and not sure what you mean cullin8 but i fine sand them to the ideal finish that i want then proceed to primer with white high hide primer sealer( like a bulls eye 123 product) let it dry , light sand if needed then, spray my colours, wait 24hrs and either use spar varathane 3 coats or nu lustre(like etex, but cheaper here in canada) 2 coats, have done many baits this way and never had this problem , will this help? and are there some colours types of rattle cans that are not compatible with others? the base i sprayed on the lure in ? was a gold colour, ( over the white primer) then my other colours, and even after it peeled off the gold on the lure wasn"t affected, its still on there , but has a really slick like feel to it, could this have caused poor adhesion to the other paints over top? and finally one last dumb ? has any one tried to put a coat(s) of etex over spar varathane, for a super coating !!, sorry for all the ?"s and any help is appreciated!!! Rob 8)

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well if the gold was still in tact i would say that somehow you got a reaction between the clear and the gold, usually a bubble is from something under the primer, but doesnt really sound like it here. Try shooting the primer on a test panel (wood block or something) then shoot some gold on part of it and then a couple other colors on other parts then clear it as you did before and let it cure to find out if the gold is the culprit.

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Rob,

Stick with paints from the same manufacturer. Crossing brands is asking for chemical reactions to occur. Sometimes metallic paints, standard paints and fluoroescents (same brand) will still react.

Why are using spar? It will yellow over time for sure. Stick with the new lustre or etex. Are you using a rotating drying system? If you want to avoid the epoxys try using spray laquer instead of spar. It produces a very hard finish and doesn't yellow. Stinks like hell so do it in the garage.

Cheers!

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All great advice so far. Bulls Eye 1-2-3 is a fantastic product for house painting. I finally quit using it on lures because of two qualities that make it such a good primer for walls and woodwork: its flexible and breathable film. In effect, Zinsser is calling it a breathable sealer. I have peeled this stuff off of bare wood lures and have also peeled paint from it. For lures, I want a total moisture barrier. I currently use 2 coats of Minwax Poylcrylic. It is a little pricey in the spray cans but not nearly so much so in the pints or quarts. Or if you are going to use E-tex or Nu-lustre for your final clear coat, I'd also use it for a sealer. Then prime over your sealer with Krylon White or something, but not with Bull Eye.
Dean

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Ok...... gonna blow your mind here.


Finger print on the wood body.

Primer did not bite the wood.

As the paint job shrunk it lifted off that spot.

Ok, when most reaction between paints happens, I notice 2 things happening.
Peeling ......Thinner in the new paint cuts the first coats and it lifts from the part.
Never dry.... the two paints react together and make a goo that never drys.

Also it sounds like the gold was a semi or full gloss paint.
You will get better coverage and adhesition if you use the flats.
Do not think I have seen a flat gold though.
Little hard to find at times, but you are clear coating for a gloss finish.
Flats have about 80% more pigment.
Gloss is 80% gloss.

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Robert: If the primer and subsequent color coats have not had proper dry time and the clearcoat has dried, you will have solvent trapped in the substrate and will cause a bubble. Allow ample drying time for each coat of primer, color and clearcoat.

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Rob,

You've also got some very likely causes in the subsequent responses. Complete drying of each coat is essential in avoiding bubbles, blisters, etc. especially with non-satndard paints & colours (ie. metallics).

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Dean,

I'm curious as to why you would say to use Etex as a sealer if you are using it as a finish? You may be right, sounds like a great idea to me. I am, however, using BullsEye as my sealer and then going to Etex and haven't had any problems...well except for that one bait that exploded in the kitchen, yikes!
8O
Thanks!

Jed

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Jed,
It probably makes less difference on the harder woods, but for the softer woods, especially balsa, an epoxy seal coat just offers extra physical protection, plus one coat coverage, no raised grain sanding, no worries of moisture or air coming out of the wood, and the smoothest surface you'll ever paint. I had alot of baits turn out fine with 1-2-3, but it simply does not bite the wood as well as many other products, regardless of surface prep, which is probably the price paid for "minimal grain raising". I'm talking water-base 1-2-3 here, I might add. 1-2-3 might dry to touch in 30 minutes, but it takes a good 3 days to cure under ideal conditions, and Kentucky is almost always humid, save for the dead of winter. And some stuff will bleed though it. I have spread many gallons of it, it has saved me a ton of work sanding because it will adhere to glossy surfaces. But it breaths; good for walls, bad for lures. It is made to let moisture escape through it. Where does that moisture go in a lure that is clear-coated with a polymer finish?
And I can see it now, frivilous lawsuit #xxxx because you didn't have a "Caution: Exploding Lures" sign in your kitchen.
:lol: Dean

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i add a wood sealer before i add primer. this keeps the air in the wood from escaping into the paint, which causes such bubbles. balsa is the worst in terms of this. my suggestion is to use foam board. it takes a few coats of sealer to make it smooth to the touch, but once it is you can prime and paint it. its lighter than balsa too! balsafoam and balsafoam II are both sold in art supply stores. check it out

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I've noticed over the years that metallic silver and gold paints are somehow incompatible with non metallic paints. I have also had paint peel off of a gold painted surface. In fact I have found that by spraying a black enamel over a semi dry silver metallic I get a nice crackle finish.
I have found that by allowing the metallics an extra day to dry they can be overcoated.

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I use cans on some of my lures and yes some paint will not like others. I have never seen the reaction cause it to bubble like that. The paint that I see it with the most is mixing a flat paint with gloss or semi gloss. The most I get is the crackle effect. I think this was a dirty surface problem, like Rich said.

Corey Karren

[url]www.tyjack.com[/url]

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Besides the bubble thing, The part about piant peeling off like a skined snake> That part can be a good thing. If you did not get a bubble then you would not have known the paint condition. I can produce pianted lures like this and the benifit(without bubbles of course) is that if I do a bad paint job on wood > I can remove it and make a complete change over. I can also seal it that it doesn't peel off. Nice option if you are planning to do it that way and not by mistake. What causes it ! I don't know and I'm reading the B.B. of what everyone is saying. Its no fun tring to correct paint mistakes such as blends and so I do the whole lure over.

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I use balsa exclusively and what I do for all of them is prime with an oil based primer, then come back and paint them with createx paints, then seal everything with two part epoxy (the 2000lb version found at Wallyworld). Now one more thing that I find in balsa is sort of injecting the wood with epoxy. What I mean by this is when I do my hook hangers I use a 1/16 cotter pin and a 1/16 finesse weight. I drill the hole for the weight to go in, it's a tight fit. Then I fill the hole with epoxy and push in the weight with cotter pin and it forces the epoxy further into the wood, I have even had it come out of the back of baits through all the different pores in the wood, makes for a really solid bait, especially when it is topped with the epoxy (rock hard finish). When I use the epoxy for the hook hangers I use the 1500lb epoxy, this one dries in about 10 minutes. I have used this and picked up 25lb dumbells with these hook hangers in balsa before the final epoxy coat, very strong stuff!!

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Most of my lures are cedar and I have not used balsa but I think the technique I use will work for both.

I mix up some ETEX (Devcon is too thick for this) and slop on a good thick coat while it is still very runny. I usually rotate the bait by hand for a minute or so while the epoxy penetrates the pores of the wood. I then wipe off the excess with a rag, rubbing as much as I can into the wood. I wipe the lure clean so it does not have a noticable coating but rather appears as though it has been dipped in water and wiped with a paper towel. There is no need to rotate the lure until dry since there is nothing to run, just hang to dry for a day.

The lure is now sealed, but not coated. I use developed this approach to keep the cedar from staining the paint in the future but also to add as little weight as possible. I use Krylon Fusion for the base coat.

I also use a similar approach with the melted pastic cup solution.

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what we do is after sanding immerse body in lacquer sanding sealer. then e immerse the body when dry in white lacquer prime. overbite dry . then base then artwork. final coat new lustre or 3 coats of clear acrylic. no peel or chip. good luck hope this helps. george woodie b8s :

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Did you try this method?
[url]http://www.tackleunderground.com/index.php?page=10&mode=article&k=32[/url]

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[quote=Husky]Did you try this method?
[url]http://www.tackleunderground.com/index.php?page=10&mode=article&k=32[/url][/quote]

Husky's method is Da Bomb! I can prototype a new shape, seal it, then pool test it 30 minutes later. If don't like the shape or the weighting I can fix the bait, re-seal it and 30 minutes later its back in the water. It is much easier to sand than epoxy and you can use Krylon Fusion as a base coat.

I have been using only one coat but I immerse the bait for 30 to 60 seconds. With the cedar I use I can see tiny micro bubbles releasing from the bait as it soaks. I try to shake as much excess from from the bait as I can to reduce the weight. On my small baits I wipe the excess of with a rag.

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