lipless crankbait questions

[CoreyH]

So I decided to try making a couple lipless cranks.  One I made out of PVC trimboard and the other out of basswood.  I started with the PVC and went pretty narrow with it.  So narrow that I don't feel comfortable putting a hook hanger on the back of the bait since I feel like the back 1/3 of the bait is so narrow that it could (and probably would) break if I put a hook on the back and actually had a fish hooked on the back hook.  I went wider with the basswood so I wouldn't have that issue.  While working on them both, a couple questions came up...

1.  Is there a rule of thumb when it comes to the taper of a lipless crank when making it out of PVC or a softer wood like balsa or basswood?  I know you want it wider up front and narrower in the back to give it the action it needs, but then you run into issues with the back being weaker.  Just looking for suggestions here.

2.  Is there a preferred way of adding rattles?  I wound up drilling a couple holes in the belly and putting a couple BB's in each hole.  The hole is bigger than the BB's, so it does allow some room for the BB's to rattle around.  It worked OK I guess, but I can't imagine there's not a better way.  I wound up using some wood putty to plug the hole without filling the hole and ruining the rattling, but I'm not sure that will hold up well.  I did put some super glue over the wood putty, but again I have to figure there's a more efficient or better way. 

[DGagner]

28 minutes ago, CoreyH said:

So I decided to try making a couple lipless cranks.  One I made out of PVC trimboard and the other out of basswood.  I started with the PVC and went pretty narrow with it.  So narrow that I don't feel comfortable putting a hook hanger on the back of the bait since I feel like the back 1/3 of the bait is so narrow that it could (and probably would) break if I put a hook on the back and actually had a fish hooked on the back hook.  I went wider with the basswood so I wouldn't have that issue.  While working on them both, a couple questions came up...

1.  Is there a rule of thumb when it comes to the taper of a lipless crank when making it out of PVC or a softer wood like balsa or basswood?  I know you want it wider up front and narrower in the back to give it the action it needs, but then you run into issues with the back being weaker.  Just looking for suggestions here.

2.  Is there a preferred way of adding rattles?  I wound up drilling a couple holes in the belly and putting a couple BB's in each hole.  The hole is bigger than the BB's, so it does allow some room for the BB's to rattle around.  It worked OK I guess, but I can't imagine there's not a better way.  I wound up using some wood putty to plug the hole without filling the hole and ruining the rattling, but I'm not sure that will hold up well.  I did put some super glue over the wood putty, but again I have to figure there's a more efficient or better way. 

I cut about an inch or so of plastic soda straw, put a couple of ball bearings in and taper a couple of small plugs out of a dowel then superglue them in. I drill 3-4 holes in the belly of the bait and push it in and epoxy or superglue/baking soda over it. They work good.

For a lateral bait, I drill a hole from side to sid through the bait then a slightly larger one over the hole on each side down just about the thickness of a dime.. I put a ball bearing in the hole and cover each side with dimes. The dimes are flush with the bait because of the second hole drilled. The hard coins make a nice hard sound when the bearings hit it. That's how I do it anyway.. seems to work good.

Here's a link to a bait I made with the straw rattle.

And a link to the bait I made with the coin rattle.

The rattle parts are both about mid way into the video...  you can zip through if you want to see it.

[CoreyH]

Very creative!  I can definitely see me using the coin rattle with a lipless crank.  Thanks for the suggestions.

[Hillbilly voodoo]

I have built more lipless baits then I can remember because this was all I made for a good number of years. There is no magic body shape or face. It’s a matter of your catch point at the front catch the right amount of force for the body. Where you put your tie point is huge. The basic principles of making a lipped bait still work but think of the forehead/face of the bait you are using as a catch point as a lip.

You can create a lot of different actions with lipless crankbaits/plugs. I have some that the tail swings up and down instead of side to side. I have another that swims in and S pattern( don’t ask me how with the S pattern it’s a one off fluke).

As for rattles I have just done similar to the dime method above but I capped it with thin sheet metal circles, beer can, and on large baits I have used beer caps

 

 

[CoreyH]

Thanks for the info.  Do you usually keep the "forehead" of the lipless crank flat so that it catches more water?  It seems that a lot of the popular mass produced lipless cranks have a flat, wider forehead and then once past the line tie the rest of the back is rounded.

[Hillbilly voodoo]

All depends on the action I am going for.. if I want a tight wiggle narrower slightly conclaves works well. Wide and flat opens it up but still a faster action. Wider concave is a wider slower action. A steep face followed by a concave section will cause a nose dive/ side to side kick. The last on can be deadly and an odd action I don’t see in store bought lipless crankbaits . Something I figured out by tinkering. Basically the face tips the lure to a new angle causing the second concave section to catch the water pressure.

Of course weighting and tie point locations are involved too. I don’t always use the classic tie point location you see on most lipless crankbaits 

best advice I can give is stop looking at other lures and thinking about what they did. Start thinking about how a lure catches the water pressure and how the pressure decreases as it shifts changing the angle of the catch point. You are simply directing water pressure to push your lure the direction you choose 

this is one of those things I have a hard time explaining but a 20 min back and forth conversation well tossing different designs in a lake would be an eye opener lol

[CoreyH]

Again, thanks for the help.  Sounds like I just need to play around with some designs and see what works and what doesn't.  A little bit of fun and a little (or a lot) of frustration.  But it'll be a good way to learn I guess.

[Hillbilly voodoo]

35 minutes ago, CoreyH said:

Again, thanks for the help.  Sounds like I just need to play around with some designs and see what works and what doesn't.  A little bit of fun and a little (or a lot) of frustration.  But it'll be a good way to learn I guess.

It does help a lot to mess around with things. It’s also much easier to help when someone has reached a snag in a build with a goal in mind. Part of the issue is there is so many factors involved in lure action and different goals unless things are narrowed down it’s hard to help without bombarding you with a ton of info. 
 

For example I could tell you how to build a lipless crankbait but it would only be 1 of thousands of ways to make one. There is also a ton of different actions with this style as well achieved different ways. None are wrong or better then the other and all will catch fish under the right conditions 

Another thing to remember with mass produced lures on the market they follow trends. So when you notice a trend like the wide flathead lipless crankbaits you mentioned it’s not that it out produces other styles. It is more likely it is a popular trend the company’s are trying to capitalize on

 

 

[DGagner]

Sort of a related story since we're talking about what catches. 

When I was a kid my brother in law used to tie flies for trolling.  He was an avid fisherman too. We called them streamers back then. He was very good at it and sold racks of them in area stores.

I'd go over to his house asking for a couple of flies to fish with. He'd look through a shoe box of grey ghosts or red and whites and thumb through them saying 'nope, nope,....'. Then he'd stop and say "this one". Sure enough I'd catch stuff on it till the feathers were a frayed mess. They all looked exactly the same to me, but not to him.

[CoreyH]

So I messed around last night making a lipless out of some basswood.  I have the body cut and shaped (and I'm actually very intrigued by it since I did some unconventional shaping in a couple areas), but nothing else done.  Before I added rattles and ballast, I had another question.  Where do you generally want your ballast weight in relation to the centerline (horizontally and vertically)?  Do you want to keep it as low in the body as you can?  Do you want the bait weighted more towards the nose or spread out more evenly between the nose and the middle of the body?  I would think you would want it weighted a little more towards the nose to have the nose pointed down right away so that when you cast out and start your retrieve the bait is already in the correct nose-down position, but I have also seen some lipless baits that fall level and kind of shimmy on the way down (I'm thinking of the Strike King Red Eye Shad).  Is this another area that can be done a thousand different ways, or is there a standard for weighting?

[Hillbilly voodoo]

You are on the right track with the way your thinking 

for weighting level or nose down is what you want to go for. If I am building a slow sinking lipless I like a slightly nose down fall. For weight placement keeping it low in the body is best for stability. I would drill hole/holes for ballast in the belly. Most cases right behind the front hook hanger works well. Unless you have a crazy body design this will likely do the trick 

The other thing to think about it your tie point. You want it so the forehead(catch point) is pulled through the water on the correct angle. Somewhere around 45 degrees will work. When you test you lure if it is over powered move the tie point closer to the nose of the bait 

since this is a new type of build for you I recommend testing the action before finishing. Once you’re body is carved install hook hangers and tie point and seal the wood. Don’t go any farther before testing. Go to the lake and you can weight you lure by hanging the weight from the front hook hanger or a strip of duck tape to hold the weight to temporarily hold weight to the belly. Test out your action and adjust weighting till your happy. I recommend an eye screw for the tie point so you can adjust that if needed

I always find with new lures test the action before completely finishing the lure. It hurts less to start over if you are only half way through 

If you come into issues I have no problem helping with steps to help correct issues 

[Hillbilly voodoo]

I should add the 45 degree angle I mentioned is not a set in stone thing. It’s just a decent starting point. With out seeing the body you carved I am doing a little guessing 

[CoreyH]

Thanks so much for the help!  That is the one thing I like better about PVC...I don't need to seal it before testing.  I'll try what you suggested and let you know if I have any more specific questions. 

[CoreyH]

By the way, I did what you suggested with regards to thinking about how the water flows/pushes over the bait, which is how I came up with the design of the bait last night.  It certainly makes things more interesting when you start thinking about it that way instead of simply trying to copy a tried and true bait that's already out there.  The downside is that the tried and true baits are that way for a reason...they've already been tested and the design works.  There's always the chance that a design I come up with myself could perform terribly or not at all.  But again, that's part of the fun and the frustration aspect of making baits.  My wall of shame already has a few failed baits and I've only been doing this for a month or so!

[Hillbilly voodoo]

If you ever want to figure out how to fix your wall of shame lures I bet between all the knowledge on this forum members could tell you how to get them working.

Almost everyone starts out lure building thinking about the tried and true lures as their benchmark to reach. I can say with confidence there are lures created by members of this forum that are above and beyond the well known go to lures on the market. 

Set your sights beyond your favorite lures because it’s very possible to create something better. 

 

 

[CoreyH]

11 minutes ago, Hillbilly voodoo said:

If you ever want to figure out how to fix your wall of shame lures I bet between all the knowledge on this forum members could tell you how to get them working.

Probably right, but I'd cringe thinking about even showing those baits to anyone.

[Hillbilly voodoo]

3 minutes ago, CoreyH said:

Probably right, but I'd cringe thinking about even showing those baits to anyone.

I bet I have worse still hanging around lol

 

[Hillbilly voodoo]

Here is an lipless plug I made around 17years ago. Ugly crude and a far stretch from what I make now. We all start somewhere 

 

[CoreyH]

Thanks for sharing.  The ones I have made that have failed have been more design failures, but I also need to get an airbrush and learn to do that because using fingernail polish certainly doesn't help make my baits look better!  I hate spending the time and effort to make a bait only to see it look terrible because of the paint job.

[HokieMusky527]

On 2/20/2020 at 1:38 PM, DGagner said:

 

For a lateral bait, I drill a hole from side to sid through the bait then a slightly larger one over the hole on each side down just about the thickness of a dime.. I put a ball bearing in the hole and cover each side with dimes. The dimes are flush with the bait because of the second hole drilled. The hard coins make a nice hard sound when the bearings hit it. That's how I do it anyway.. seems to work good.

 

i too have made a bait with rattles capped with dimes.  It definitely makes a unique sound.  I have also capped the end of my holes with little chunks of lead.  They both make a very different "plink".  Even turning the dime over heads/tails can change the sound a bit.  play around and see what ya figure out!

[Big Epp]

@CoreyH I hear you on the airbrush!  It seems like people can get some REALLY nice looking finished with them.  Just looking through the photo gallery on here blows my mind!

I'm on a very tight budget, and haven't been able to afford an airbrush, compressor, etc, so I've been using rattle cans.  I've been able to get some pretty good looking paint jobs with it, though they are much more abstract than some.  Impressionistic as opposed to realistic.  For now though, I'm happy with it.  I'm trying to make the hobby pay for itself, so it's slow going...