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LaPala

Devcon or ME?

36 posts in this topic

HELP!! Just have Devcon crack on me, actually this is the first time.

Been casting on to rock (see pic left) and after I've caught a snakehead which incidentaly bit the rear hook, I found a chunk of Devcon missing (see pic right) right down to the foils.. That was Pikey Baby's Tail end, there are some teeth mark/scratch slightly further up the missing Devcon. That was 2 thick coats of Devcon!!! 2nd coat applied after the first coat has cure to touch (but b4 the full curing time recommended)

Can someone tell me if its me - uneven mix, oily surface
OR
If Devcon is applied on too thick this happens
OR
It is just because Devcon is so!!
OR.....?????

Restart the "war", I wanna get to the bottom of this. Grr...
(call me an instigator of war if you want to :D)

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I never had this problem with E-tex LOL!

Seem's to me that E-tex is not a brittle as devcon. But that's just me.
I don't know and don't care which is better. E-tex is what I use and don't have any such problem with it.


Robby.

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Lapala...Here you go...stiring it up!!..LOL.....My guess is you bounced it off a rock..I've done the same thing,and Devcon will chip in that case...I'm guessing any of the products out there would chip..(how is THAT for tip toeing through a mine field?!!)..there is a alot of velocity in a cast,and things like that are going to happen..Nathan

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Not going to stir here......yet.

But I remember your wondering if you had the correct type of devon over there in earler posts.

Is it the same formula as the guys use over here.

Brittleness is the problem, no flex to the finish.

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I have never had this happen Lapala but I personally (note I said personally) have found that Devcon is brittle once dry. ([size=1][b]I would suggest you try etex-but don't tell skeeter!)[/size][/b]
Jed

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I've had a similar thing happen with Etex. This damaged happened inlet fishing from a jetty. I expect to tear up some tackle on the rocks but I was a little surprised at how easily the Etex failed.

The actual damage is more a tear and peeling back of the Etex. The Etex is almost rubbery and I can peel it back if I try. When I peel back the Etex the paint comes with it and the primer stays adhered to the lure body. I would think even if the paint did not adhere correctly to the primer, that should not cause the Etex to fail when hit on a rock.

I am assuming the cause is how I mixed or handled the Etex, maybe someone (Richoc?) can tell what might have gone wrong.

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It doesn't matter what you use to top coat your lures with or if you are even using a store bought lure. If you beat the rocks with the lure, the rocks will beat up your lure!!!!!!!!! Following is a list of my suggested procedures.

1.) Let the painted suface dry completely, no matter if you are using Createx paints, lacquer or whatever.
2.) After applying the first top coat of Devcon 2 ton epoxy, let it cure/dry completely.
3.) Then sand it to get a good even but toothy surface, before applying the second top coat.
4.) Vacuum and wipe the lure completely clean to remove all the dust from sanding.
5.) Then apply the second coat of Devcon 2 ton epoxy, letting it cure completely before attaching split rings and hooks.
6.) Then practice your casting. A good cast will settle lightly or enter with minimal splashing at the waters surface next to the visable cover (such as rocks, fence posts, logs, weeds, etc...). Kerplunks and Kabamms are not usually considered desirable entries. :roll:

Of course the exceptions would be if you are trying to catch such spieces as mud cats, rock bass or fish sticks.

Hi. my name is Bill and I'm addicted to Devcon 2 ton epoxy.

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Lapla the reason it did that easier is that it was on a foiled bait. There is nothing that will stick to foil perfectly (stir stir) and being somewhat brittle sometimes it made the devcon easier to come off. Metal that is not sanded such as the foil just doesnt give paint anything to grip. I dont think the devcon failed as much as you just tortured it to death lol. If you make it to withstand that kind of abuse it will be so thick it wont run right lol.

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Lapala,
I agree with Cullin8s that foil does not give any clearcoat a good surface to grip on. But Devcon has performed well on many foiled baits. You Etex Weenies take a powder....... Your stuff won't take a shot on rocks like that either. Flexable my @$$. Lapala, from looking at the picture even the rear hook hanger is bent. That was one Solid!!! hit that the lure took. Devcon is an excellent clearcoat. If the lure was completely sealed then the chip was caused from a hard impact with the rocks. If it was not completely sealed with the Devcon then water got to the wood causing it to swell and the Devcon to crack. Stick with the Devcon. If you didn't hit the rocks then tell me what you think happened. I will help you get to the bottom of the problem.

I'll deal with you later Jed. Trying to take advantage of an aging baitmaker!! Lucky for me that I had my new reading glasses on while reading this post. 8)
Skeeter

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Mallard,
Your correct.....you can peel it.
Looks as thought that bait hit a few rocks .
Most likly that is the thinest spot on the finish.
That is a rather sharp/small leading edge.
Mosk cranks take the hit with there lips, you built in in that case.
The finish is always going to be thinner on a sharp edge like that, no matter which finish you use.
What is application mehtod are you using and your cure time.

Etex is a polyer resin.
It never fully hardens, that is why it stays a little flex-able.
You can cut it with a good sharp edge and get under it and start it peeling.
I always tell people it will not chip, but it can be cut.
Then water gets under it and will cause it to peel off, then is will no longer protect the paint under neather.
A couple sharp rocks can shave a cut in the finish some times.
I have some rather old jigs that I can still press my fingure nail in to, them you can watch it "heal".
It take hits to hard objects very well.

Your primer to color layer failed also on the bait you talked about peeling down to the primer.
You might want to look at why there was no bite to the primer from the colors.
Not making excuses just saying I would be more consered with that bond.
Because that is a dead give spot to lift and separate in the finish.
Enough movement and it is going to crack and peel.

Jed/Skeeter
busted a gut there....LOL

Lapala,
You got a delamition right off the foil just as others have stated.
But the finish crack before peeling.
But still waiting to hear what the formula of that finish on that lure was?
How many tripps to the rocks did it take ?
Or was it not noticed till it was coming out of the fishes mouth.

K-Bill,
I run a devcon de-toxic group.
that stuff fries your brain man............

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Thanks for helping guys. And some of the "diplomatic" answers does tickle :D

Here's more details: I have been casting into rocks delibrately (abusing is the word) but only notice the missing chunk when dehooking the fish, so it might've cracked earlier. [b]The puzzling thing is I've been doing the same thing with another lure (see Craw pic) but with just a thin layer of Devcon and it held; but this wasn't foiled.[/b]

I'm quite sure I've got the right Devcon now, it the 30 min stuff, however curing is pretty fast over here (85-89?F). [b]Could faster curing be the culprit too?[/b]

It's not a particularly hard hit & bend the hook eye even (Skeeter), the hook eye is 90? out by design to accept normal single hook (see Pikey b4 pic) I have been abusing both pictured lures equally & both of them caught their fair share of the toothy creatures as well. The other lure's Devcon held!

Now the foil theory.... It could be. I have the lure in my hands & other than a few chips close to the original missing chunk that I can lift with a blade easily, the other part held pretty well. The foil was actually pretty textured providing ridges & valleys for the Devcon to hold; I even have part where the foil came off with Devcon when I pried hard to get it out. [b]Could it be it is this tail end has a weak spot of adherance, little bit of oil or moisture from my hand b4 the first coat of Devcon is applied?[/b] If so I'll have to avoid contact with surgical gloves from now on after the paint job. :D

:D Here's the bomb: from the Etex comments - it's more flexible. Does this mean then Etex is not as hard as Devcon is? Since it is agreed(?) both top coat won't handle rock abuse, Hard Devcon or Flexible Etex has a slight edge over such abuse?

[quote][b]Richoc[/b]You can cut it with a good sharp edge and get under it and start it peeling. I always tell people it will not chip, but it can be cut.[/quote]
Now my toothy creatures here have plenty sharp teeth, Devcon does scratch but held. So if Etex is flexible (softer?); Rock cast can be avoided but sharp tooth can Etex handle that?

Now this does bring up another qusetion: Wood-primer-foil-paint-topcoat and Wood-primer-paint-topcoat bonding. Where is the catch? I'm pretty confident about my primer-paint bond, it'll take the wood out with it if breached. foil-paint, primer-foil-paint, foil-paint-top coat bonds I've always have doubts. But these are all thin layers and if the top coat doesn't "soak" (permeate) into these layers, our top-coats are just as good as the "shell" it forms. Ideally I'd want a top-coat that permeates thru all the paint-primer & into the wood itself forming a thru barrier-armour :D Does such top coat exist? Is there a way to make our existing top-coat do that?

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Yea you can recoat either way.......there won't be a problem. I have used Devcon for literally a couple hundred baits and I have used Etex on a couple hundred baits. I like them both but preferred to apply Devcon. I am currently using Etex however for a couple reasons...one is I can get it much cheaper than Devcon and two it's what many of the top builders use, and three it has a good track record for longevity.

RM

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Lapala,

I don't know of a clearcoat that will soak thru paint, primer, and then soak down into the wood. No clearcoat can take unlimited punishment. Richoc is right about clearcoat thickness being thinner on edges. Especially sharp ones. I always touch sand sharp edges to dull them. Devcon will sometimes crack on a real sharp edge. I have never used Etex and have never held and felt the texture of it. But from what I gather from Richoc and crew, if Etex is flexable then it may take rock bumps fairly well. But it still won't take repeated hi speed direct hits into a rock. It is allot like the clearcoat that they put on painted placstic bumpers on cars. That clearcoat has a "plastic flex additive" that they add to it. They are right when they say that it never fully hardens. This is how it stays pliable. The cure rate of the Etex must be fairly slow. This is the only way that the flexability can happen. But even with the flex additive, it will crack on a plastic bumper when it is hit hard enough. Devcon is a hard resin clearcoat. If you look at the Devcon packages you will notice that the 5 minute epoxy is 1000 psi. less than the 30 minute. 5 min. will withstand 1500 psi. ( pounds per square inch) and the 30 min. will withstand 2500 psi. This is because the hardener for the 5 min. epoxy is much faster. It is FULLY cured in 2 hrs. This is why it is more brittle and withstands less pressure per square inch. The reason that the 30 min. works so well is because it goes on fairly thick. It cures slower and therefore it will handle more pressure. However, the hotter it is the thinner the coating will be. In 4 years I have chipped 2 baits. One of them chipped because I did not cover the bait completely with the Devcon and water got to the wood. The other chipped because I threw it at 100 mph. into a big rock. Even though it chipped it did not go all of the way to the paint. You already know that Devcon works well. You know that from the other baits that you showed us. Regardless, as far as I know, there is not a bait clearcoat that cannot be chipped. Especially when you are purposely torturing the bait by throwing it onto big rocks.

Stay away from Richoc's Devcon "detox group". They are a twisted bunch of guys. :twisted: Just look at what they have done to Jed. :( I am going to have to mount a rescue mission for that poor guy.
Skeeter 8)

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Ever try putting on two top coats Devcon first and e-tex second? wouldn't we then get the best of both worlds and the feuding could end?

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[b]Skeeter[/b] Thanks for reviving my confidance in Devcon :D. Guess I shouldn't expect to see a miracle epoxy soon for the abuse I subject them to. I test cast come Devcons varying the harderner/epoxy ratio a bit & if I add more hardener it becomes more brittle, less hardener it seem less so. I don't have equipment to test it, all I did was a hammer & plier test :D The Devcon has cured for 24 hrs, I'll check again after a few days curing to be sure if this is the case instead of the one with less hardener has just not cured fully. I'll play around with the ratios a bit & hope I can come at one that is the best of both worlds other that the recommended 50:50. I've found Devcon to be quite forgiving in not getting the ratios exactly 50:50. 49:51, :51:49 etc etc still works, have you tried this?

[b]Cheesehead:[/b] Your suggestion may take some experimenting; since etex can be done over devcon & vice versa..... hmmm does seem to have merit in trying. You have both etex & devcon? Can you try mixing devcon the mix etex then mix the 2 concoccation togather.... can this witches formula cure? and to what results? I don't have Etex, if I do, I'd surely try it. :twisted:

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Skeeter,
Count me in on your rescue mission for Jed...I think he is still saveable..it hasn't been that long!!!!!!!..LOL..Nathan

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The formulas of Etex and Devcon are very different.

Thoses Wooden tables tops and bar tops you see that look like they are coated in glass......
You can snuff out a cigarete on it and it will not leave a mark.
That is Etex.

The cure rate of Etex is all up to the user.
I can make it set faster than Devcon if I like.
And it will not be brittle, and will still be water proof.
It is very very versitile.

400% percent cheaper in volume to use than Devcon.

It can be poured, dipped, brushed, and sprayed.

You can use it as a sealer, a paint(colors), and the clear coat if you wished to.
It will take pigments, to make it a paint, if you wanted to do it.
It can be thinned readly, and will soak it to the the wood as a base coat sealer in one, if you wished to use it that way.

It can be used to glue the lips in if you wanted.

I use it on Rod wrappings all the time also.

You can patch and recoat with out sanding.(bites itself)

Saggs and runs can be fixed after it sets, but before it cures, real easy.

Belive it or not heating after it sets can be the wrong thing to do.

I slam jigs coated with it in to the concrete at boat launches to show people the chip proof finish.
Then let them try to chip it.
Then sell them a pile. 8)

When I say it can be cut and peeled , so can the gel coat off a fiberglass boat, it is just is not the easy to do.

Heck I have used it to clear coat motorcycle tanks and fenders all ready.

Pick-nic tables, tip-up frames, driftwood, picture frames, puzzles, mounted fish, plaques, and so much more I have coated with the product I call Etex.

Lapala,
You could use it for every coating on a lure.
And I have. :D

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Oh, boys....

Jed has found the light and kicked the devcon habit for good.

And I still have more I could teach him.

Just wish he was closer so I could do a hands on demo.

It is not to late for you also to reform.

The Devcon de-toxic center is free.

Heck it cost me $300 running it this summer.

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I have only used devcon to date (Does 10 baits count?) but will be switching to e-tex when and/or if I ever get satisfied with my painting skills. I've stripped the lures I'm currently working on 6 or 7 times now. pretty soon I'll toss these and move onto the next batch of scrap.

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Ricoh and Skeeter;

I think you right about the cause of the coating failing, the coating on the sharp edge of the lip is inherently just too thin. I would have had the same problem with either top coat, the design was not well suited for the application.

There is no way to avoid banging the rocks when inlet fishing. Lures must be designed to handle the abuse. I only went to my banana lure as a near surface option after my father-in-law and I had already lost five lures due to hang-ups. The banana lure was designed for the flats where there is only the occasional oyster bed for obstacles. I now know I must design my inlet lures without sharp edges if I want more durability.

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Guess it's time for our annual epoxy spat (no pun intended). Funny, it was almost one year ago that I posted some chemical properties of common resin systems. Remember this?

[url]http://www.rivercitylures.50megs.com/matl/epoxy/epoxy.htm[/url]

I guess I really dropped the ball. I never completed it. Maybe I'll look at again soon.

***TIP*** For coating over foil - Leave some area on the lure (top and/or bottom strip) uncovered by foil. If you cover the entire bait with foil, and then coat the entire foil surface - what you have is a "floating" coat. The epoxy does not bond with the wood. Leave some bare areas (that expose the wood core) for the epoxy to bond onto. It is a much stronger topcoat to have the epoxy both adhearing to the wood core as well as to the foil. Of course, you'll have to paint over the bare areas. A little more surface bonding with the core in random areas will certainly help, no matter what resin you use.

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That's a good tip on the foil AlamOso!

[b]A few bullets concerning the two finishes from my perspective: [/b]

1. I cannot say Devcon ever failed me. I had one or two baits do some strange peeling but I have had a couple odd things happen with Etex too.

2. It seems once dry Etex is more difficult to peel off, it comes off in small pieces while Devcon will come off in large chunks.

3. I have some Devcon baits that yellowed some on the bellies but I suspect this was more a result of a paint problem than anything else.

4. Etex is easier and considerably cheaper to use when working with large numbers of baits.

5. I know of several large builders that use Etex as a final finish, none that use Devcon.

6. Etex burns my eyes, Devcon does not.

7. I think it's easier to get a perfect finish with Devcon than it is with Etex.

8. Anglers fishing my baits are reporting that the Etex is holding up exceptionally well for them....thus far.

9. Etex is cool, Devcon is for Dweebs.....sorry couldn't resist that one Skeeter.

10. Have had one bait returned to me with Etex but think it was likely a combination of repeated slams to the rear of the bait but toothy critters and potentially uncured paints.

11. Got tired of having to track down the Devcon, supply was not always available.

12. I have more problems with bubbles in Etex than Devcon.. I know Rich says this is something I am doing wrong but I am a very persistent fellow and still have hassles with it.

Beyond all that, some of you might remember the Devcon Bait test I was running in the window of my truck? Well that bait sat in the direct heat of my truck all summer long and it hasn't yellowed a bit! I will post a pic if anyone is interested.

Etex is my choice for now but I expect any day someone will post info regarding something "better", looking forward to it.

Jed

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