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Posted 13 March 2005 - 09:04 AM
has anyone tried automotive laquers as top coats, you can build the stuff up right thick with a few coats, I was thinking this new anti scuff laquer is bound to be pretty tough
anyone tried it out???
Posted 14 March 2005 - 08:02 AM
Automotive clears have been used. Some work much better than others. The stuff really has a hard time with rocks. It seems to chip fairly easy. However some are tough enough to use. Since you are in Scotland then you might be able to find a lacquer clear called Dura-Cryl by BASF. I was told that they used in on Ferrari cars. It was banned by the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) here in the U.S. about 3 years ago because it contained lead. You just dip the lure and let it hang to dry. Strings will run off of the tail of the lure. Once it is dry cut the small strands of clear from the tail and put alittle on with a brush. It will blend right in. Without thinning it, one dip is all it will take. It use to sell for around $85.00 USD a gallon. If you can't find that then get the highest grade of clear that you can find. It does make a difference. You can also buy a flex additive to put in it so that it will be harder to chip. You can buy most clears by the quart. They cost between $25 and $50 USD.
Posted 14 March 2005 - 12:28 PM
I have never heard of this ant- scuff lacquer and I am interested in hearing more about it! I have used lacquer many times to repaint plugs with good results spraying and dipping. There are a few thing to consider when dipping. Sometimes when you dip a lure, depending on what paint the lacquer goes over the details will re-melt and re-flow, which causes you to loose some of the sharpness of your detail paint work. Another consideration is when you dip the lure and you have excessive build up of clear at the point where the clear drips off the lure. That area will be prone to chipping if you wait until the lacquer is almost dry, trim the build up off with a razor blade or wet sand off. Buff with compound to restore luster or squirt a small amount retarder or thinner on the area(a dusting of retarder will reflow the clear)
Posted 14 March 2005 - 05:22 PM
the anti scuff lacquer, is something brought out by mercedes, it is an attempt firstly to stop those swirl marks that paintwork picks up, the big paint manufaturers have brought out similar versions for the industry to try to keep any post manufacturer paintwork as close to standard spec as possible
i was thinking about painting it on with a mini spray gun (sata minijet or devilbiss sri) that way i could build the coats up till it is nice and thick, we have just finished a wooden dash board for a very old jaguar at work, its been laquered 8 times and has been flatted back to a finish that is pretty much unbelivable its like glass, thats where i got the idea from
would there be much diffrence between dipping and spraying?? apart from the dipping coat being initially thicker
never heard of a flex additive, i'll have to find out about that one
Posted 14 March 2005 - 06:17 PM
The flex additive came into existance when the auto makers began incorporating flexible body parts on cars. The lacquers and enamel of the time were too brittle to flex to the extent the plastic componets would, like bumper covers and fillers, headers, quater ext. and such. It is basically and elastomeric additive that allows the paint flex to more of a degree than it normally would. If you add flex additive to your spray lacquer it will impart more orange peel or grain, than straight lacquer. This news about the european automakers utilizing lacquer again is interesting. The european finishes, in my opinion, have always been superior to the U.S. car makers product.
The difference in dipping vs Spraying: Dipping is quick, virtually all major tackle makers of the past used this method for fast production. Less clean-up due to the fact no gun is involved.
Spraying is more time consuming, however, it has its advantages! More precise application of the paint or clear. Allows you to acheive affects: Such as staging of candies, pearls or tints between coats. Another benefit of spraying lacquer as opposed to dipping, is the risk of solvent saturating the base color/primer is diminshed considerably, which can present a litany of problems that degrade the finished product, if not ruin it!
Posted 14 March 2005 - 08:08 PM
Will the flex additive always add this peel effect? I have had troubles with clears holding up to rocks. It does not take much of a bump for the clear to chip. The additive was suggested to me by a manufacturer so that the paint will have some flex and not chip as easily. I have seen lures that were dipped in the Alpha-Cryl and there were no problems that I could see. They dipped the lures in full clear. It was not thinned at all. But I saw this done 3 yrs. ago. I did not have the eye for stuff that I do now. I very easily could have missed something.
Who makes this clear that you are using? I find this clear interesting also.
Posted 15 March 2005 - 03:06 AM
I have never dipped a lure into clear lacquer which has flexative added . Orange peel shouldn't be consideration when dipping, however, it might require a little tinkering with thinning. As far as spraying goes it can be compensated for by thinning with a hotter thinner. which will allow the paint to flow more. Take into consideration that it has been well over 25 yrs since I have shot flexative in lacquer, so there might have been some improvement in the product since that distant time.
There are differences in lacquer viscosity from one manufacture to the other. If it comes in a can in liquid form it most likely contains: toluene, xylene and MEK mixed with the resin. Which accounts for the difference in the viscosity from one brand to the other.
What I have garnered from reading your posts in the past, I am doubtful that lacquer w/flex additive will ever meet your expectations. Do you remember the whamo super balls from the 60'S, If you could get that in a clear finish and apply it to a lure, could it be beat?
Posted 15 March 2005 - 08:23 AM
Whamo super balls!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeah, I remember. I don't know how I am remembering, but I remember. We are really dating ourselves now. But, you are right, that would be interesting. I believe that you are right about automotive clears not meeting my expectations. They are just so beautiful and sparkling clear when they go on a bait. But with the price that I charge for a lure, my customers deserve a tough bait. But I kept playing with the concept hoping for a miracle. Guess it won't happen.
Posted 15 March 2005 - 03:18 PM
i asked about this flex additive and appartently it is used alot as there are loads of plastic panels, bonnets, doors, bootlids, roofs etc etc
the lacquer we are using at my work for mercedes is spies hecker, its one of the biggest known quality brands in the uk
i also looked at these staged pearls and fancy putting it on a few lures the only thing is the cost, i'll have to be selling a few lures to afford that stuff
i was told as well that if your doing lures with alot of patterns/colours to lacquer after each one as the layering gives it almost a 3d look, i've never tried this so i can't comment, but its likely i'll get the dabbling head on and try it
am i right in saying the orange peel effect could be blocked out if you build the lacquer up enough, this was my plan at least as i want to layer the stuff on thick, the dash board we done had deep wood grains in it, once it was finished it was like glass
Posted 15 March 2005 - 04:12 PM
I wouldn't stop tinkering with topcoats though, I think the ultimate topcoat is already out there. I think that it will take the little guy tinkering with this or that to stumble onto the next topcoat innovation. Is it really in the best interest of a major bait maker to create a lure finish that is virtually indestructable, unless, they want a slice of the custom bait pie. I have seen several products over the years, in my opinion, that would out perform what the bait makers are using, in regards to chipping. I know of an automotive product that would virtually eliminate rock chipping, but, It has some what of a texture to it and it is not as clear in appearance as the finishes currently used. Maybe the texture could be a benefit, if it could be controlled to a degree that it might simulate the actual texture of scales on a fish. I believe the clarity of the finish is more important to the fisherman than to the fish, and once underwater, I believe the difference wouldn't be a concern.
You mentioned once mixing paint into epoxy to cover over the lead, that made think. Have you ever tried to mix paint with devcon and coat the entire lure with that combination?
Since we briefly discussed Whamo! Here is a picture of Whamo's venture into lure biz! I purchased this goofy contraption of Yahoo a number of years ago for nothing, thought you might get a kick out it! And BTW if you run across any of these I am interested!!
Posted 15 March 2005 - 04:47 PM
Yes, you can color block the orange peel out if there is sufficent topcoat to do so. A point to remember though is at some point you will lessen the longevity of a lacquer finish by applying too much. You will be far better off to only apply what is needed to acheive the desired results. Particularly when shooting over something that breaths such as wood and if you choose to apply a heavy coating of lacquer, wet sand the finish dull with 600 grit or better as soon as it has dried enough to do so.
It will allow the solvent to evaporate quicker. When you wet sand the paint you are in effect creating more surface area that is in contact with the air, which will allow a more rapid and thorough evaporation of the
solvent. That also is why you sand a finish prior to repainting an existing finish it creates more area for the new paint to adhere to. Allow ample time for the finish to shrink before polishing, otherwise, the woodgrain will re-appear in the finish later down the road! Now this information pertains to the acylic lacquer I am familiar with and might not be the case with the anti-scuff version you have mentioned. Thanks for the info on the paint! and good luck!
Posted 18 March 2005 - 01:18 PM
i think it will be the same with the anti scuff stuff, its a medium solids lacquer so it will take a few coats to get any kind of build on it
the other stuff we have the bmw stuff has this flex agent in the lacquer, it might give both a bash and see what kind of results i get with it
have any of you guys used the mini spray guys like the sata minijet or devilbiss sri, i think iwata do one as well but i can't recall what it is, i don't think this lacquer will spray well through an airbrush, i think one of these might be the order of the day