goldenshinner

Mathematical modeling and pure science of lure design

54 posts in this topic

AFTER ALL MY HOURS OF DAYDREAMING OF FISHING DURING THE SAME MATH CLASS I HAVE COME UP WITH SOME OVERLOOKED FACTS THAT NOT MANY FISHERMEN SEEM TO CONSIDER. WITHOUT PUTTING MY 'LIGHTLY' PATENTED 'NEW PLUG' UP FOR GRABS I WILL SUGGEST A FEW SENSICAL QUESTIONS OUT THERE. HOW MANY FISH DO YOU CATCH ON THE BACK HOOK ? NOT MANY ? WELL, THE GREATEST HINDERENCE TO GOOD SWIMMING ACTION IS ADDING A BACK HOOK TO ANY PLUG. TRY TAKING THE BACK HOOK AND SPLITRING OFF ANY STOREBOUGHT CRANKBAIT THEN WATCH THE ACTION IMPROVE!!! IVE DONE A FEW HOURS OF UNDERWATER VIDEOS OF MY OWN CREATIONS, AND TRIED AND TRUE STOREBOUGHT MASS PRODUCED PLUGS. :mad:

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WOW!!!What a topic!!!Very interesting!!First of all!english is not my first language so It would be dificult for me to say all that I have to say about that treat!!!Lure making is a hobbie for me!and for the majority of the tu member!Trial and error is a must in lure making!!And I must say that I like that part!!!!lol!It's like at the casino! when you win you are so glad!!that is one of the greatest moment of your life!!For a lure maker!!!The first lure that works and that can catch fish!!!!!what a accomplisment!!!!SO!!!let keep thing's like they are!!there is a lot of knowledge in here to help every one so why should whe complicate that wounderful thing!!!!lure making whit some math!and trigonometrie,geometrie and all those other things!!!??I allready have to deal whit that in my day job!+ and - .001!I dont think that it realy matter in lure making!!!Have some fun and catch fish!That is what I think about that,BUT that is my opinion!

cheers,Dan

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Funnily enough, I took one of those brain tests about a year ago, found it on the web while looking for some puzzles to pass the time. It asked me about a dozen daft questions with sillier answers. It then represented my left/right orientation with a dot on a picture of a head. My dot was positioned inside the left ear. I am also left handed, but doubt that that has anything to do with it.

Imagine a world run by left brain people, what a boring world that would be, even I would not like to live there.

As for random testing against application of engineering theory. there is nothing wrong with either, there are good arguments for each. Neither set of designers should feel the need to defend an argument as there is room for both views. There are several different vocations on the go here and we should respect each of them.

1. There are those that want to make lures purely for fishing. Fancy paint jobs and engineering BS are of no consequence. Catching fish is all that counts.

2. Those who devote hours to the art of the lure. A true labour of love and deserve our respect and admiration.

3. Left brain nerds. The first thing they do when they buy a new reel, is take it apart to see how it works and wander around the lake, harassing all the other anglers, rooting through their bait boxes for ideas.

No matter which one you are, you will be totally absorbed by the hobby. I wake up in the morning and it starts. I drag my spoon through my cornflakes and play with the vortices. It occupies my mind constantly throughout the day, until I retire to bed, when it helps to put me to sleep.

For me, getting involved with the science has been fascinating and educational. I have even found applications for the theory outside of fishing. I have designed a training unit for long distance swimmers and a new type of helicopter blade. When am I ever going to be able to find the time to develop and test them!

As for the scientifically developed lures advertised. I have severe doubts. What makes it scientific? If I measure the lip width with a vernier, does that make it scientific? How about if I measure the weight and the volume to calculate the ballast? Maybe they have a fluid tank for testing, with high speed video cameras for motion analysis. Very convenient but still, no more scientific than testing on the lake.

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When I decided to make baits myself there were two reasons.One for the love of learning new things and to have baits that no one else has.Not to be the odd man out but if when searching for info on lure crafts all I found were a bunch of schematics and tutorials on CAD and design,I probably would have found something else to do with my time.I could probably have someone take all my drawings and proofs,compile a cad drawing and breif techniques page and some one can make a bait that will be good first shot.But then I would be defeating my whole purpose for my venture into the addicting world of lure design.I guess I like things learned the hard way,thats why not everyone can do this.

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Well that's the great thing about TU, that there is room for every luremaking process. Some people are destination oriented, others are there for the journey, all of which can be accomplished in myriad and wonderful ways. I'm sure no one utilizes the same process as I; we all have learned different ways to make lures work to whatever individual criteria and standard we each have, but we share bits and pieces all along the way with a wonderful cumulative effect we can call a knowledge base. I can't thank Jerry enough for his continued hard work that has gone into the platform with which we accomplish this! It keeps all of us moving toward ever-better lures.

Dean

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Again that was only my insight and opinion,And dean. that was beautiful.Amen,Im gonna print it and put it on the wall in my shop.Well spoken!

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... you will be totally absorbed by the hobby. I wake up in the morning and it starts. I drag my spoon through my cornflakes and play with the vortices. It occupies my mind constantly throughout the day, until I retire to bed, when it helps to put me to sleep.

I love that quote, Vodkaman. I think it describes a lot of us on this board. It should be posted as part of the header on the home page of this website as a graphic reminder for those poor, naive, unfortunates who wander in here innoncently hoping to build a bait or two.:lol::lol::lol:

I think this will all evntually evolve into a new 12 Step Program...

"Hi, I'm fatfingers and I'm a bait builder."

Response from the smoke-filled room full of people with paint-stainded fingers: "Hi, fatfingers."

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Heres the equation for good lures

Lots of work + Lots of time + Lots of testing + Tons of frusteration + Lots of practice + Understanding the fish + Doing the impossible = A possibility of a good lure

And theres probably more that I havent listed

Good luck

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Thanks Vodkaman,

I love threads that make you think and open new doors. I have always wanted to learn more about hydrodynamics, I will look into some info on the vortexs. Funny, once you start building lures you do look at everything and think....wonder if I can make it catch a fish? Good luck with your new job. Check in once in awhile to make sure and keep us all on our toes.

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One more thought on paper engineering of a lure, is the constance of the material. Plastic will react more consitantly than wood. Wood Every board in a log same size and all will differ in density and Weight depending on distance from the center of the log.

John Lenox2k

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Wood Every board in a log same size and all will differ in density and Weight depending on distance from the center of the log.

Yup, not to mention the moisture content can differ from center to outer. And if you hit a hidden knot or have one buried in the lure you have a level of unpredicatability.

They say proper planning prevents p*^ poor performance. All of my plans work perfectly until they are attempted. From there it is tweaking to get it right. If I'm lucky, first try. Normal second try. More than two tries, forget it for now and move on to the next idea.

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wow! i was buired in work and was away from the computer for too long! you guys went crazy on this subject....thank you. i also believe we solve our problems differently. the good and bad news of my own research into this matter: good news.i have a friend in the auto R&D industry that claims there are programs out there that will actualy generate such a desired program. but the bad news is they are not available and I would not be able to use them. :(- ....some could actualy scan a starter lure generate the formula that represents aerodynamic resistance, and then go from there . he claims im making this more difficult than it needs to be. it is actualy very simple. my best corse is to start with a simple model(lure) and use only one changing variable. say for example we plot lip length against woble on a graph. as the length changes this will produce a nice curve that will be easily graphable to precict max, min, slopes . then we produce another test for lip width. graph these all out. and so on and so forth. it should produce trends to predict were the ideal sizes would be for a particular lure design. I agree that these specs should be posted on packaging. as in all reality a lure has an operating speed that it functions best in. fishing is definitely becoming more of a science than an art. we can fight it as i did with gps, high grade fish finders, underwater cameras etc,.. but in the long run there is more to gain by acepting that the future is here.yes i believe we are on the verge of seeing new classes in lure types evolving. sure patented new designs are great. if they work well.and the money is there, then others will also come out with alterations and updated versions of the same.and thats good because that means your design is a good!

but back to the main subject. modeling. I think that we would benifit from such a resource.

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say is it possible to post vector based files attached to this thread? if so i would like to post a starter resource for lips that im working on.it is a pdf file.

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The future is here, of a fashion, and has been for quite some time for all practical purposes, in the guise of mass production of plastic lures. Modeling, within its useable parameters, would enable anyone to easily create a lure that acts exactly like any other lure that is produced by those same finite specifications. Ideally, with tight enough production tolerances, our friend Tally would no longer have to sift through similar looking lures to find the best ones; they would all be equally bad :)! Rick Clunn would no doubt concur, because of his philosophy of highly pressured waters, which is in a nutshell, is that bass learn sound wave signatures of popular lures, and become lure shy of certain lures, which is something that most of us with a lifetime of fishing experience have seen happen many many times. Hot lures don't remain hot, although they may remain predictably productive for the rest of their lure-lives.

If mathmatical lure modeling trickles down within the grasp of every fisherman who might desire to build a lure, that wouldn't bother me at all, as it would simply help those just beginning, to build lures that work, instead of having to struggle with that nasty learning curve that some lurebuilders must endure in which to create their masterpieces. This will not threaten the custom lure builder, who will not be any more threatened by modeling than mass production, which created the custom lure niche and which thrives today because of it.

Dean

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I guess that is why we are always outside the box?;) Finding that unique design that makes the bait we make sooooooooo special. I can't argue the point that the "new age" of design is here, but it will still come down to manual tweaking to get that bait special......:twocents:

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Well I 2nd everyones thoughts here Cause I dont have a clue about lure making.. I am just a painter... wish I could make them.. But.. I did mess up a lucky craft pointer.. Lip broke on me when I tried a new stripper to take paint off.. wasnt good... I cried for a few mins..ok maybe I cried for a few days.. then I remember my HERO FROM PBS!!! YOU KNOW HIM THAT CRAZY WHITE BOY WITH A AFRO!! BOB ROSS!! He always said their are no mistakes only happy accidents.. So The_Rookie took a broken Lucky craft and a Titan Lip from a team daiwa crankbait.. Basically I put a HUGH CRANKBAIT LIP that dives 25 feet and put it on a Jerkbait.. I didnt measure just dremeled and glued.. Didnt think about vortex or whatever all those big words yall are saying.. I just used Marine Epoxy..Dries Grey takes about 5 hours to harden.. Put three coats on it.. and too it too my neighbors pool without permission.. GUESS WHAT HAPPEN!! IT RAN TRUE AND SINKS LIKE NOBODY'S BUSINESS... But its the most unquie looking bait I have ever seen and is priceless to me best feeling I have had in years.. It doesnt float because of the heavy lip on the front but baby it goes deep and Runs straight.. So like my boy BOB says no mistakes only happy accident... The Rookie has a custom Lucky Craft Team Daiwa that T.HOG will paint!! Going to call it a CountDown Jerkcrank!!! I will fish this baby in 60 feet water and catch some Tater Hog Stripper this summer with it... Wait and see....As for science I will leave that to you experts.. Like most guys I dont read the directions.. JUST GLUE AND PRAY!! I hated science class anyway..

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This is how it begins brother, first you're just a part-time lip gluer. Before you know it you're switching components, and telling everyone, "I'm just fixing lures I already have, I can quit anytime I want."

Yeah Rook, we hear you. Denial is the first sign. Then The Wife notices little things missing from her personal stuff. Mascara brushes. Her favorite fingernail polish and fingernail files. The credit card bills; "$1200 at Home Depot? What are you doing out there in that gararge?"

Next thing you know you'll be standing before a room of chain-smoking fidgity folk with dark circles surrounding their hollow eyes, confessing,

My name is The Rookie...I'm a baitbuilder...

Just ask Fatfingers

Dean

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I read this post this morning and have thought on it all day. I don't think that fishing is an exact science and I feel that there is no perfect lure. There are to many variables to calculate.

My best friend and fishing Buddy past away a couple of years ago and he taught me many things. He had fifty years of fishing experience on me and this is what he said " I can throw out a lure and watch one fish run at it, and at the same exact time that the lure hit the water, another fish would run from it."

My neighbor next door told me about some guys that work at his shop and they had an under water camera for sale. They claimed that they were tired of looking at all the fish that wouldn't bite under the ice.

Another thing I wanted to tell you is, what works in one place doesn't work every were. The Worth Co. makes spoons that are lighter than a traditional Dare Devil. This was my starting line up down by Kalamazoo County. When I moved to the UP only one of the half dozen colors I used would catch a fish. I have since found out it is because there are no Carp in the waters in the UP were I fish. Another factor is the water color. This proved to me that color is an important factor.

The barometric presser is a big factor for some fish. My dad would turn the truck and boat around and go home if the cows were all lying down in the field. He proved to me many times that it was almost a waste of time when the barometer is working against you. Fish feel bloated and their strike zone gets smaller.

I have watched two men in the same boat, with the same lure, one with scent on and the other without. The scented lure caught three times the fish over the unscented lure.

I fished a shore line for Bass and practiced catch and release. The next day I took a friend down the same shore line and we never caught a Bass. On the same or any other bait we used that day. If I had not been so successful the day before I would have thought there were no fish in the lake.

I think you need to do it like they did "old school", dream it, build it, fish it.

Building A Fishing Lure is like trying to forecast the weather. It is also a Mathematical impossibility. To many variables to calculate. Good Luck.

Howard Capone

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I m reading this post very interestred (bad english from me)...If any of you guys have a scaner and scan the "killer crank" and input the data in a 3D modeling program..what it will come out??:huh:

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I like the not knowing part of lure design :lol: I think it adds to the fun of chucking the lure out for the first time.

philB

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My name is The Rookie...I'm a baitbuilder...

Just ask Fatfingers

Yes, this is madness.

Matt reported recently that he'd purchased a cow watering trough to test baits. The truly sad thing is how much I admired him for coming up with the idea.:eek::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::yay:

Everywhere I go, I look for new materials and ways to use stuff for lure building. I look in hardware, plumbing, fabric, household goods, office supplies, restaurant supplies, cleaning supplies, paper products, paint stores, cake decorating stores, and more.

This is not a hobby. Its a disease.:teef:

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tell my about it....just in this morning....drinking coffe at work...and i have seen those littel stick's that they give you at your cafe...i was thinikng...."hmm that shape is a pattern for shapes"...at my ex working place...water base paint that they use to paint the women bags...:huh:

just look at a thing.... you will say to yourself: how do i use that at may cranks?:lol::lol:

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