[philB]

Originally Posted by redg8r

All great tips, but like Striperknight & smitty mentioned, craters or voids in an epoxy finish is most likely oil/wax contamination.

Heating & various application methods will improve or ease the application an epoxy finish, but if the surface is contaminated, oils & waxes will "repel" the epoxy from flowing or wetting out properly.

Make sure you have adequate light to inspect your application if you are brushing on epoxy, its real easy to miss a spot, if you indeed covered the entire surface & voids continue, then its contaminated.

Smitty's solution of adding a barrier coat is one fix, another would be to avoid touching the body with bare hands & make sure you have a good water/oil trap, along with a filter on your air lines (if airbrushing).

Craters are produced by escaping air. To demonstrate this the picture shows a crater created in a jerkbait by the eye. If the air escapes during the early stages when the curing is beginning and the epoxy is at low viscosity then the chances are the epoxy will just refill the crater. However if it happens when the epoxy is at a high viscosity it may not be fluid enough to run back into the crater. If it happens at a very advanced stage of curing then a ruinous crater will appear which could be large and with a sharp edge (a lot of craters look rounded at the edges like a hollow dimple).

The pictured crater happened because I bought some eyes with a peg on the back and had to drill a hole to fix them. Instead of filling the hole prior to fixing the eye I just popped it in the hole and epoxied over. During curing the temperature rose and at the stage where the epoxy was almost cured the air bubble forced its way out . The resulting crater is a sight to belold and in a strange way I am quite proud of it. Hows about a competition for the best lure makers out takes with a prize at the end ?? I think I am in line for a medal with my 'awesome crater'. If you look carefully you can see plenty of small air bubbles around the eye.

[Downriver Tackle]

Originally Posted by BobP

IMO, epoxy has a single advantage over moisture cured poly - it levels out and hides surface irregularities extremely well. Otherwise, the poly is tougher and slicker. On the high end japanese bait repaints that Rookie is famous for, DN wins hands down. Thin, clear, glossy and tough as nails. Just what he's looking for.

A few TU'ers (well, maybe just Dean!) use multiple coats of Dick Nite as their standard clearcoat. It makes a very durable lure but takes several days to apply. If you've ever sanded moisture cured poly like DN to prep a repaint, you'll see why guys choose it.

TU'ers are roughly divided between guys who build baits as a hobby and guys who are into production for sale. The different perspectives mean alot when choosing equipment and finishes.

Haven't had so much fun since the Devcon-ETEX skirmishes! Cry "Havoc!" and loose the dogs of war!

Haven't been here long enough to have been in on the great epoxy-urethane debates, but I can see where epoxy is getting bum rap. Like I've said about a dozen times so far......... it's because people are using GLUE, not PAINT epoxy. Two totally different animals. For one, glue film properties are much different that epoxies formulated as protective coatings. Glues are formulated for strength and adhesion. Pretty much nothing else. Coatings are formulated for those properties, plus mar and abrasion resistance, wetting and flowing for ease of application, UV resistance, etc. Glue epoxies are epoxy resin and accelerator, nothing else. Possibly a wetting aid. Epoxies made for coating applications contain epoxy resin, accelerator(much less!!, a key!), wetting aids, surface leveling agents, slip and mar resistance additives, and some have UV inhibitors. I can see where some guys who do it just for themselves don't want to buy a quart of clear, so a couple of tubes of D2T is perfect. But, if anyone likes epoxy, and paints a significant quantity, they should take a look at the different 100% solids flooring epoxies out there. IMHO, if you're using a good paint epoxy, the only thing SOME urethanes have over it is UV resistance.

As far a coating weight/thickness also, which people freak out with epoxy too. We did a huge study on epoxy and coating weight for a very concerned customer. We weighed about 10 lures/ea of all kinds of different brands and types of a big order I was doing. No matter the manufacturer we checked, lure weight varied about +/- 25% right out of the box, even suspending baits. Some varied by +/- 50%!!!! We reweighed all the lures after painting and clearing with 100% solid epoxy and compared them to that lures weight before painting. A full multi-color paint job and a thick coat of epoxy only increased lure weight by 10-12%, very consistently. We even wet tested some of the heavier suspending and floating baits, and even though they were on the heavy end coming right out of the box, and painted, they all still floated or suspended as they should.

[philB]

Hi DT

Words of wisdom indeed, you have hit the proverbial nail on the head. I have tried more epoxies than I care to mention and although I have not done any kind of in depth studies as you have I see the results of my efforts and decided out of them all that Etex and another I have (don't even know the name !!) are the best finishing epoxies I have used, I don't think it is coincidence that they are both coating epoxies. The unknown one is a solvent free flooring epoxy and Etex is marketed for coating all sorts usually table tops ect. I reckon in practice these two epoxies take at least 48 to 72 hours to attain their full hardness even though the claimed times are a lot lower.

Personally I am very happy with epoxy as a finish coat though I have to admit they are a lot fussier than others available.

[pikeman]

Philb , I've had the same problem with the air coming out in later stages especially at the carved details. I used to carve small lines on the lure and everything went well until the topcoat , the brushing was as smooth as it can be , turned the lure for 30 min and let it cure overnight , in the morning BOOM the air was there , noticed that I've had the same problem with propionate then I've solved it somehow , the details must be well defined and the topcoat as thin as it can be...with propionate there is no problem due to the fact that you can thin it alot a do multiple dips. As for Devcon , I used it now only on larger lures

[BobP]

DT, you're very knowledgeable about finish epoxies and I appreciate the added info. I've used Devcon Two Ton, ETEX aka Envirotex Lite table top epoxy, and one other table epoxy (forgot the brand but it yellowed like crazy).

I often use Devcon. Readily available, fairly cheap, brushes well, levels great, cures hard in 24 hrs, looks good and wears pretty well. When I say "wear well" I mean equal to most factory baits. I can't see any yellowing on pearl white lures I painted with D2T 3 yrs ago, so I'm not knocking it on that score either.

Other TU'ers prefer ETEX. It contains a solvent so is a thinner finish that cures more slowly. Users give it high marks for durability. It's a favorite among custom builders who use multiple coats for a thick clearcoat on musky lures.

Dick Nite Lurecoat is a very thin (compared to either of the above) moisture cured poly. DN had it formulated to clearcoat DN spoons. Tough, slick, thin, glossy stuff. If you want to dip finish it's a great choice but you can also brush it and get a nice clearcoat.

One critical quality of ALL these "TU Favorites" is they are readily available. Walk into any Walmart and buy Devcon. Walk into any Michael's Craft store and buy ETEX. Click on a banner ad at the top of this page and get DN at a great special price for TU'ers.

Most of us are not wedded to any particular product or brand. Show us something better at reasonable cost and we'll jump at the chance to use it. So - what's its brand name, where can we get it, and how much does it cost? Is there a minimum order size? Do we have to contract with an epoxy company to get it custom formulated?

[Dean McClain]

Originally Posted by BobP

DT, you're very knowledgeable about finish epoxies and I appreciate the added info. I've used Devcon Two Ton, ETEX aka Envirotex Lite table top epoxy, and one other table epoxy (forgot the brand but it yellowed like crazy).

I often use Devcon. Readily available, fairly cheap, brushes well, levels great, cures hard in 24 hrs, looks good and wears pretty well. When I say "wear well" I mean equal to most factory baits. I can't see any yellowing on pearl white lures I painted with D2T 3 yrs ago, so I'm not knocking it on that score either.

Other TU'ers prefer ETEX. It contains a solvent so is a thinner finish that cures more slowly. Users give it high marks for durability. It's a favorite among custom builders who use multiple coats for a thick clearcoat on musky lures.

Dick Nite Lurecoat is a very thin (compared to either of the above) moisture cured poly. DN had it formulated to clearcoat DN spoons. Tough, slick, thin, glossy stuff. If you want to dip finish it's a great choice but you can also brush it and get a nice clearcoat.

One critical quality of ALL these "TU Favorites" is they are readily available. Walk into any Walmart and buy Devcon. Walk into any Michael's Craft store and buy ETEX. Click on a banner ad at the top of this page and get DN at a great special price for TU'ers.

Most of us are not wedded to any particular product or brand. Show us something better at reasonable cost and we'll jump at the chance to use it. So - what's its brand name, where can we get it, and how much does it cost? Is there a minimum order size? Do we have to contract with an epoxy company to get it custom formulated?

Good post Bob, well said, and, asked!

Dean

[Downriver Tackle]

Small quantities: The best readily available epoxy I found was Flex Coat "Ultra V" formula. Made for lure refinishing. A little harder than regular Flex Coat and has UV inhibitors. Will still yellow ever so slightly, but it takes years to be noticeable.

Larger quantities, and a little better: Sherwin Williams and most of the large paint manufacturers make 100% solids clear flooring epoxies that are awesome. But, you usually have to buy at least a quart of each component.

[BobP]

Thanks DT. I'm about out of "glue" so am looking around to see what's available. The requirement to buy a whole gallon for $100+ is a little off-putting but I see it's sold as a floor coating so I guess that's understandable. My concern is that I do 100-150 crankbaits a year and I'm wondering if a gallon will store for the rather long time it will take me to use it all. Many of the products I've perused so far on the web advertise 100% solids but none I've found so far advertise any UV additives or other enhancers.

[Downriver Tackle]

Originally Posted by BobP

Thanks DT. I'm about out of "glue" so am looking around to see what's available. The requirement to buy a whole gallon for $100+ is a little off-putting but I see it's sold as a floor coating so I guess that's understandable. My concern is that I do 100-150 crankbaits a year and I'm wondering if a gallon will store for the rather long time it will take me to use it all. Many of the products I've perused so far on the web advertise 100% solids but none I've found so far advertise any UV additives or other enhancers.

Epoxies don't store real well in room temps or cooler. They "precipitate" over time and will form crystals in the resin. It's easily fixed by warming the epoxy and mixing it. Good as new, but a gallon is a bit much to be warming and mixing for the average guy. Try the Ultra V. You'll be pleasantly surprised. It's really tough!! The only thing I didn't like was that it didn't seem to have any anti-maring additives. Even without it though, it is virtually indestructable. I still have charters running spoons and cranks for me on Erie that were Ultra V prototypes 3 years ago and not one single failure reported yet. Even with the spoons!!!

[redg8r]

Originally Posted by philB

Craters are produced by escaping air.

Yup that's clearly a bubble, my prior issues with epoxy were completely coating a bait & yet encounter a void in the finish before it setup. the void opened the finish all the way down to the paint layer. It seemed to "repel" the topcoat, much like oil repels water.

A bubble that size surely came out of the bait, but how did it do that without lifting or bubbling the paintjob?