[DeHeron]

OK..I am coming out of the closet. Yes, I have a problem! Upon my old post searches it seems like wiggle,wobble,etc, are used to define everything going on behind the bill? So I would like help with terminology. Having looked down on a crankbait my whole life I can see the action between the Head and Tail and somewhat understand it. What words can apply to this action? I am more curious in the action that I can feel but can't see. The action between the Back and Belly. What terms would apply to this action? I can allmost understand this. But my Peon Brain can not put both of them together! What are some things I could look at to change the action between the back and the belly? With the baits that I have built it is either there or not. So I obviously still do not understand what I am doing to cause it. Thanks for the cool site!
P.S....I was going to hang it up and then I stumbled on this site and saw Maddox Bays Divers...Awesome!

[JBlaze]

Cutting an X ???????????

[JBlaze]

I to am a newbie at crank bait making and am curious about the action you mentioned between the back and belly. I didn't know it existed.

[Vodkaman]

Their are three movements available to the lure designer, as in aircraft design and submarines. These movements are called yaw, roll and pitch.

Like you, I am totally confused by the terminology used on this site. I am convinced that people are referring to diferent interpretations. A standard needs laying down, but why create a new standard when the world outside lure building has got it covered already. Here follows industries definitions and what I think the tu word is (but could be wrong on the latter).

Axes

x axis represents a horizontal line from nose to tail.

y axis represents a hirizontal line from side to side.

z axis represents a vertical line from bottom to top.

Yaw is rotation movement about the z axis. Looking down on the lure, it 'waggles' or 'wiggles' from side to side.

Roll is rotation about the x axis. Grip a pen between finger and thumb and roll it, this is 'roll'. TU members refer to this motion as wobble, but very often people use the word wobble when they actually mean waggle.

Pitch is rotation about the y axis. Looking at the side of the lure, holding the lure between finger and thumb at the centre, raise and lower the nose so that the lure rocks like a see saw, this is pitch. TU does not have a name for this motion, in fact I have never read a single word about it and yet it is a valid movement, easily achievable with the correct lip design.

As for what lip generates each shape, Horisontal lips produce near pure roll action. Vertical lips produce near pure yaw action. Lip angles between these two produce a combination of roll and yaw.

I hope this basic introduction to the movements helps. I would be interested to hear everyones interpretation on wiggle waggle and roll so we can all talk about the same thing without confusion.

[JBlaze]

Vodkaman, very interesting, about four months ago, I started trying to make crankbaits, I must have made 30 to 40 of them and all were scrapped because they were either unbalanced, wouldn't yaw or waggle or worse, some of them the whole lure just spun like a spinnerbait blade. A couple of the early ones ran straight but did what you refer to as pitch. I was pretty excited about it because I had never seen a crankbait do that before. I called it porpoising. It was very rythmic and made your rod tip pulse. I told one of my friends about it and he said to throw it away that it wouldn't catch anything. He said several years ago one of the bait companys had out a crank that did that and it just wouldn't catch fish.
So I trashed them too.
It took me almost four months make a crankbait that runs true and waggles correctly. It really cuts (waggles) a very nice X in the water and I can't wait to take it fishing to see if it will catch a (hopefully some ) bass. I am also trying to learn the art of airbrushing. I am getting better at it but nothing fancy like I see posted on TU. I went to the fishing expo here in Knoxville a few weeks ago and met JawJacker and saw his cranks up close. Beautiful Work!
I look forward to the day that I can paint and carve like him.
Anyway, thanks for all your posts I've learned a lot from them.
John

[longball]

"z axis represents a vertical line from bottom to top."

Vodkaman where would the Z axis line be on a typ. crankbait? The line tie or the weight? What about double weight insertion points?

[Vodkaman]

All the rotations are through a centre point which is the sum of all the loads affecting the lure. A major piece of this is the centre of mass of the lure and the ballast. Another is the centre of buoyancy. As you retrieve the lure, the line will also be trying to keep the lure central.


This last weekend, I built some lures with rear mounted ballast as I am working on the 'cast-ability' of my design. Looking down on my lure revealed all the above. The extreme rear mounted ballast caused the crank to yaw or waggle from the rear end, the reverse of what we are traditionally looking for. It was shaking its head quite dramatically, as the lure has a very wide yaw or 'waggle'. I was surprised that the line load did not limit the movement more, in fact the line effect was hardly noticeable. I digress, enough about my project, back to the point.


It is easy to accept that roll occurs about the x axis and quite easy to imagine the pitch or porpoise effect happening about the centre of the bait at the y axis, rather than at the line tie. But for some reason, the yaw action is much harder to accept. I think a lot of it is wishful thinking or hoping that it waggles about the line tie, we think that this would be more fish like.


A lot of discussion has gone on about ballast position and its effect and its importance, some of it quite heated or enthusiastic! The fact is that ballast plays many rolls in the action or movement of the lure. It determines whether the lure is a sinker or floater. If part of your fishing strategy is to pause the bait, the ballast position will determine how it sits in the water, if you want it to sit horizontally then it must be directly under the intersect of all three axes, roughly, the centre of gravity of the wood as this is also the centre of buoyancy. The distribution of the hardware will affect the location of this position.


If the ballast was placed at the axes centre, the lure would remain still in the position you placed it (in theory) as the lure no longer has information as to which way is up. My own, rear ballast casting lure points to the sky, that is my choice. At the end of the day, you have to decide what properties are important to you and design your lure accordingly, the hard part is getting it to do what you want it to do, rather than saying, ‘that’s nice, I like that’.


But no matter where you put the ballast, at one metre per second retrieval, it will have virtually no effect on the angle that the bait swims. The slower the retrieve the more the ballast plays. This is because the effect of the weight of the water on the working surfaces of the lure are far greater than the ballast. The distribution of surface area above and below the line angle is far more important. The sharp edges of the lip have a much more pronounced affect due to the strong vortices generated behind the lip, which create the action of the lure and totally destroy any ideas you might have of calculating the areas to reveal its secrets.


As for multiple ballast positions, if you split the ballast in two and move one forward, the other rearward equal amounts. The resulting centre of forces will still be in the same place but the action of the lure will be reduced. To demonstrate this, take a thin stick, attach two equal weight sinkers at the centre, grip it in your hand and twist your wrist back and forth. The stick moves easily with little resistance. Move the weights to the ends of the stick and repeat the experiment. The action is much harder to perform even though the balance point has not moved.


The explanation is inertia, the reluctance of the body to move. It is not just the amount or weight of the ballast, the distance from the centre of forces makes things worse. In calculations, it is called ‘taking moments’. The mass is multiplied by the distance to give a true representation of the load, balance or inertia. Surface area has a similar effect on the action of the lure and will be affected by the distance of the centre of the surface to the centre of forces. If you are looking for a wide yaw or waggle action then deep, flat sided lures are not the way to go, same applies to roll. Deep, flat sides would be a good shape for pitch or porpoise action.


Not every lure designer is looking for maximum action, most are looking for something a little more subtle. Personally, by searching for the maximum, I have learnt how it works and what effect each component of the lure has on the result. You could argue that my lure is more likely to scare the fish away rather than attract them, but rest assured, each lure will have its day. You can really get in to the science and mechanics of lures, for me it is the most enjoyable part of the design process. Are my lures any better for it?


The fish will be the ultimate judge.

[KcDano]

That’s nice, I like that! Should be in a sticky thread for all to see and read, until the knowledge base is restored. Excellent!

[bamabass]

is there something special about the place in which the axis meet?just wondering
thanks

[cherry]

On minnow type lures , I have found distribution of weight throughout the "keel"/bottom of the lure to be very effective. The lure that is properly "balanced" is often the one that I reach for first.