[bassrecord]

Vodkaman, on the hooks I'd be testing, I kinda agree that the point might bend first. But with guys testing worm hooks or other hooks with all the wierd kinks and bends they have, maybe their shank would bend first.

Mustad only tests the load on the bend, it looks like. Unless I'm missing something, I want to test the load on the point, the bend, the shank and the eye - whatever is the weakest part.

I think your water idea is ingenius! You would use gravity to bend the hook. But I cannot visualize the universal socket or holder your hook point would fit into.
On mine, I would also use gravity but to hold the hook point down into a "V" slot with the hook bend resting on the top of the slot so each same size hook would be tested at the same identical point in the slot.

But water is cheap <g>
John

[Vodkaman]

I know it depends on the hook size, but what kind of load range are we looking at. Given a range of hook sizes used by all. This will give me something to work on this weekend. Stuck in my apartment with all my tools and no materials, even have a test pool!

This is a useful project, if it can be designed for testing other aspects of the lure. For example, pull out loads for hangar wires in diferent materials, woods etc. The effect of opening the hangar hole, better or worse. A lot of questions could be answered quickly with the right rig, no guessing involved, just hard facts.

[bassrecord]

David, still more good info. Thank you.

Forging adds about 30% strength, so they say. What I don't understand is, if forging lets the manufacturers get by with lighter wire, which = less cost, then why doesn't everyone forge their hooks? My guess is that if their machine is set up for non-forging, they just won't pay the money to add forging since they won't be able to sell their hooks for more money to pay for the upgrade.

Today the big hook boys have automatic machinery and they require minimum orders of 100,000 pieces per size and model or they won't even set up and make a hook run. My guess is they buy spooled wire and draw it to fit the specs of their machines. One such supplier of fish hook wire is Mount Joy:
http://www.mjwire.com/mjw_fishhook.html

Sorry, I'm not familiar with Matzuo hooks but I'm testing Rodney Long's Standout hooks and am just itching to put them into the tester.

[bassrecord]

Vodkaman I don't know what load ranges we would have. My torque wrench goes up to 200 foot-pounds, I think. That should dismantle just about any type lure!

I never thought about other type testing! A tool would let us test adhesives also!

[bassrecord]

David, I wanted to comment on the Sportfishing fish hook article you posted.

{Jeff Pierce, sales coordinator for Mustad USA. "We start with steel wire about as big around as your pinky, then use our special machinery and expertise to draw it down to all the different diameters required to make anything from a tuna hook to a size-28 dry-fly hook."
Machines draw the wire to a specific diameter, cut and bend it into shape, then form the hook point. Pierce explains that, except for its stainless-steel models, "Mustad uses basically the same type of high-carbon steel when shaping all the different hooks because from that point on we can customize the products for any particular purpose." }

I don't know if I believe this nonsense. My guess is that that the specs for hook wire size 18 will draw differently than for a hook size 5/0. But I really don't care if my fish hook tester shows which hook is the best.

{Daiichi's saltwater products manager, TJ Stallings, explains why his company incorporates 80-carbon steel in its hooks: "High-carbon steel allows us to make hooks from smaller-diameter wire without sacrificing strength - and tests show diameter represents the single most important factor in hook penetration." }

I agree with his first part but I certainly haven't seen any evidence that small penetrates "better" than big. I know that "sharp" definitely penetrates better than "dull". My guess is that "small" points may penetrate better on some species or size of fish and "big" points may penetrate better on other sizes and species. Micro barb is just sales crap IMHO.

His comments on tempering and forging are right on IMHO and get to the heart of hook manufacture.

Personally I think a lot of money is wasted by hook makers when sharpening their points. I carry a diamond file out on the water and like to touch up the points to keep them as sharp as possible. Long ago I learned the hard way not to trust hook makers' points would stay sharp.

When it comes to hook finish, my goal is that the hook does not rust under proper care although I do like red hooks

{Mustad's Pierce feels saltwater {and freshwater too, IMHO} anglers sometimes exaggerate the importance of hook style when the crucial factor actually lies in hook strength. "A standard-wire hook won't do the job if you expect to be wrestling 20-pound black drum away from dock pilings," he says. "You're better off using double- or triple-strength hooks, no matter what the style." }

Ta Da! Agreed! So, Mr. Pierce, how do we determine which hooks are double or triple strength without a testing tool? And no, we won't trust you to tell us which one to buy!

[David Reid]

John, Its always difficult separating the wheat from the chaff when you are reading what manufacturers put out and what they say at times and when it comes to advertising a lot of it is put together by advertising staff who often like to use impressive words but if you actually read what they are saying and analyse it most of it is utter crap and often meaningless. Its absolutely amazing what we accept and believe at times until we analyse the claims and I am as bad as the next man on face value. I have a graphic artist as a friend who used to be the national advertising manager for a big company here in its growth and very successful phase before it got too big and was snapped up by big money and then dismembered and sold off and he has taught me a thing or two over the years with the result I do stop at times and analyse what I read with the further result that I realise that there are some real intellectual f--kwits both among the advertising people and the public at large. I suppose and imagine the hook manufacturers are just as guilty of it as anyone else.
Its amazing how quick each of us learns when we have had a hook straighten out and we lose a good fish as a result but I am not so sure we learn as fast when a hook breaks. Often we perpetrate the myth of how good that manufacturers hooks are by exaggerating how big the fish was to our friends (as we after all have the evidence of the broken hook) rather than holding the hook manufacturer to account.
It makes me wonder what actual National and Intl Standards there are. ??? Are there any or does each manufacturer set their own. The only thing I am aware of is size where you have from 32 to 1 and from 1/0 to 19/0 and I think even these vary dont they?
Just Googled and turned up the following on SS Hooks: http://www.emperortackle.com/about_us.php
and this Hook comparison chart which should be of interest to any fly tiers and trout fishermen on the group: http://globalflyfisher.com/staff/scharabun/hookchart/
and heres another LBF put out: http://www.landbigfish.com/flyfishing/hookcharts.cfm

On the basis of what has been discussed and points made by the various people here it certainly sounds like a hook tester would certainly be a good idea to make one. Holding some of these manufacturers to account and testing some others might turn up some interesting results. I remember when this soft plastics concept came out here which unlike the States is not that long back and the first ones that seemed to be available and people were trying were the Pogys a lot of the cheap ones of which came from China. Well it didnt take most fishermen long to discover they were crap and it was the cheap hooks that let them down almost everytime with most of them straightening out when you got a decent fish on and a few snapping. Its why the first ones I bought were Berkley which immediately upon inspection were a step up and I didnt mind paying the extra. Its why Berkley took off I believe although a lot of us also found their other claims were overstated. They have certainly got better and continue to improve. Maybe they are not dumping so much crap on us now. Tends to prove the old adage: First catch the fisherman and get them sold on the concept and they will do your advertising for you.

With regard to the minimum order of 100,000 again that will be to do with the tempering process and setup time.

Re Rodney Longs Standout hooks I would be most interested in anything you discover and test results you come out with. The concept is certainly good. I would be buying them myself and using them in marine fishing if he made 3/0 4/0 5/0 and 6/0s. They may need a little alteration but I still think they would work at those sizes. I have looked at the concept and believe I could actually improve upon it slightly.

"Personally I think a lot of money is wasted by hook makers when sharpening their points. I carry a diamond file out on the water and like to touch up the points to keep them as sharp as possible. Long ago I learned the hard way not to trust hook makers' points would stay sharp."
You have certainly got it spot on there. A sharp point will gain you more fish give you more penetration and hookset than a dull one and is a far better cheap investment than a lot of high priced fishing gear which often dosnt improve your fishing and the results all that much. A good diamond fish hook file and knowing how to use it properly is worth its weight in gold. I believe there is a good US brand called Jewel which comes in its own clip on twist and turn tube cover which I have never been able to source. There are a few people John who might consider you a bit of a poncer and that a diamond file is a bit overkill but take it from me its a pleasure to meet someone who uses his intelligence to get round some of the problems caused by hook manufacture and hook quality. Eg Gammys are certainly a good hook and come with razor sharp points but they dont hold it and like others tend to lose it. Personally I have never understood why fishing writers and magazines dont emphasise this aspect more at times.

[David Reid]

Here is a bit more info on SSs: http://www.steelforge.com/ferrous/stainlesssteel.htm Apparently they use the 400 series for SS hooks. Read under Ferritic and also under Martensitic. Also note where they say: "the use of argon-oxygen decarburization and vacuum-induction melting has produced several new ferritic grades including 18Cr-2Mo, 26Cr-1Mo, 29Cr-4Mo, and 29Cr-4Mo-2Ni." (= thermal lances where it says argon-oxygen). it is interesting where they say: "In the annealed condition, strength of these grades is approximately 50% higher than that of carbon steels." I cant comment on 400 series as my experience has mostly been with 304 and 316 and a very little 320 and none with 400 but I imagine it would serve the purpose admirably.

[clamboni]

It's definitely a very interseting thread and concept, but I think you're putting way too much time and effort into it. Just find a hook you like and can afford. I can honestly say that I have NEVER straightened out a regular strength mustad bass fishing, and that's all I use. Of course I'm fishing in NJ and a 7 lber is fairly rare, but plenty of 4's and 5's. And by the time they get dull, they usually get broken off anyway unless I get hung in some rocks and get it back, and no hook is giong to hold a point very well in rocks.

As far as penetration, a light wire hook will penetrate better, but you also have to look at the situation and the fish you're after. Like was posted before, you're not gonna get 20 lb drum away from pilings without a heavy gauge hook. Think about it. Try pushing a thumbtack and a 8d nail into something. Anything. The tack is gonna penetrate better. Even if the tack is dulled and the nail sharpened.

[bassrecord]

David, very, very interesting posts! It's people like you who take the time to explain and post links that make this forum worth the time!

The hook charts you referenced are well known and probably among the most complete available today. However hook comparison chart problems are legion. A's fine wire may be the same size as B's standard, C's gape is not equal to D's gape same size - same bend type, E's 3XL is not equal to F's 3XL, and the variances go on and on. SS hook comparisons are rare as well as many speciality hooks such as popper hooks (my interest). Equivalencies are often in the mind of the chart maker. And of course nobody compares breaking strength <g>.

Sadly I loose very few Big fish due to hook bending. Truth is I bend too many when they are hung up <g>. In recent years I lose more hooks by havingf them break in the vice or hit rocks or docks or wook matter due to sloppy casts. I really feel stupid when a good solid strike keeps on going because I'm fishing with a pointless hook!

SS and High Carbon steel grades quickly get over my head. I guess my approach would be to test different hooks against each other and then send out those with the highest breaking test out to a materials testing lab and find out what steel grades they were.

Today lure body material has really shrunk in cubic weight. This allows us to use heavier metal in our hooks without sacrificing performance. A lighter and stronger SS pushes the performance curve further in our favor and potentially lets us radically improve the action of our lures.

[bassrecord]

Clamboni said,
"It's definitely a very interseting thread and concept, but I think you're putting way too much time and effort into it. Just find a hook you like and can afford."

Sorry I was not clear on why I wanted to test hooks. Let's say for the same maker and model, I can find a size 2/0 that weighs less than their size 2 and is stronger than the 2 I have been using, then I can redesign my lure using their 2/0, 1/0 or size 1 and catch more Big bass. Of course many more factors and trade-offs that come into play so I would not automatically upsize without extensive testing. I hope you see that if I had some knowledge of hook strength among the sizes it would give me more flexibility in chosing the "best" fit for the specific lure I'm making.


"I can honestly say that I have NEVER straightened out a regular strength mustad bass fishing, and that's all I use. Of course I'm fishing in NJ and a 7 lber is fairly rare, but plenty of 4's and 5's."

We do a different type of fishing. I only target 5-6 pound LM bass and bigger and only on topwater. I target 20-24 pounds breaking strength and set line, drag, hook, etc at that maximum. I would never use 50 pound line for example. It's my firm conviction that overlining, over weighting and excessive weight has cost me lots of Big bass and I want reduce that by optimizing the lure.

"As far as penetration, a light wire hook will penetrate better, but you also have to look at the situation and the fish you're after. Like was posted before, you're not gonna get 20 lb drum away from pilings without a heavy gauge hook."

I agree that a 15 pound LM bass has got to be horsed away from an underwater brush pile like a 20 pound drum away from pilings. But the difference is getting them on in the first place. I submit that it is infinitely more difficult getting on a 17 year old 15 pound bass that may have been caught and released 1500 times or more in her life than a 5 year old drum that is caught the first time underwater on cut bait. Big bass don't get big by being stupid and I want to trick them anyway I legally can.

"Think about it. Try pushing a thumbtack and a 8d nail into something. Anything. The tack is gonna penetrate better. Even if the tack is dulled and the nail sharpened."

I'm not pushing a thumbtack or a 8 penny nail into anything. I'm trying to push a scalpel sharp point into something that may be as strong as some metals. The teeth on a 14 pound bass are 1/8" long! No hook point will hold there for long. It won't stick in the mandible or behind the top lip and many more places where the gristle is so blamed tough. My fervent hope is that when she inhales my lure, my hook's point will find a softer place to lodge and you can bet then I don't want some little cheesy point responsible for penetrating and then holding my next big bass! If she tail-walks and tries to toss my lure in my face, I want to have the strongest hook holding her that I could get her to take in the first place.