[Senkosam]

The Slick Worm looks very similar (ie the club tail). But that's my point - modifications are creative design in action. A tire might be a tire, but a Goodyear isn't a Michelin.

[carolinamike]

Alright guys here's my situation. One of the stores that I supply is a long time customer with a great business, and sells a lot of my baits. He calls me up and asks me if I can make the sweet beaver. This was when the secret of the bait was just being let out and was peaking in popularity. He repeatedly contacted RI (manufacturer of sweet beaver) trying to order and purchase the baits. He also contacted his major distributors and was not able to place an order. He was told that they were so far behind that they could not give him any idea when he could receive their product. LC offered a very similar mold. Should I have not made them? I use a completely different formula of plastic I'm sure. The baits are flat on one side, but are very similar in looks. I agree with Matt completely about the person that comes up with the idea. But then again, if there is a demand for the product and the customer wishing to obtain the product can't purchase it in one way does he not have the right in a free society to try to get the product in another way. From what I understand, as long as there is at least a 20% change in the individual bait, then you are not infringing on anybody's rights. I really don't feel like I was wrong by not turning down my customer on this. I don't even call it a beaver. I classified it as I do all baits like this inlcuding the brush hog and others as a creature bait, just like most small straight worms are called finesse worms. I hope one day that I can come up with a bait that is so popular and catches fish so well that everybody wants to copy it. To me, in the plastic business, this means hey I've made it. Don't mean much, just one redneck's opinion.

carolinamike

[eugene]

Hi all. Stop and look at what a lot of people did to the Beaver and look at all the names it got.

[Senkosam]

Excellent points Mike! I feel the same way that if a customer asks if I can modify a certain mass produced bait and give it to him in whatever color or salt content he asks for, the similarities in design mean nothing. I've changed the bait significantly such that it is now unique. Plus, I'm providing a source where none existed and removed the middleman to provide the product cheaper and faster.

Do Del or Bob pay royalties to the inventor of the computer-progamed lazer process? They own the machine and produce molds of copies. End of story.

If a person tries to pawn off a k/o of a branded product as that product, of course he should be prosecuted. That goes for everything from expensive pocketbooks to pirated DVDs, but products that are generically similar and packaged under ones own trademark, shouldn't cause upsets.

I came up with a design 4 years ago, posted pictures of it that contain a date of entry on the website/blog. Two years ago Charlie Brewer company coincidentally started putting out the same exact designed bait. Would a patent pending declaration have prevented the company that mass produces Slider Worms and Grubs from producing them. Doubtful.

There is a video on Lunkerville.com that shows the hardnose idea to make a soft plastic bait more durable, a year before Tom Mann bait company started making hard-plastic sections in their soft plastic line up. If I even asked them for recognition, they'd laugh and say coincidences happen.

That's the reality of using design ideas others have thought up. Unless the idea was patented (like Zoom's Speed Worm cut tail), you're up the creek. What's worse, is when they come back and try to sue you for using your idea as their creation!

Alls fair in business unless it is spelled out by law and you have the resource to sue a violator. When money talks, ethics walk.

[Mattlures]

Senksam , you and I have gone about this issue before. It is very evident that morarls and ethics mean nothing to you. All is fair in buisness right?
Just because sombody wont get prosacuted or sued over ripping sombody else off doenst make it OK. There thieves, and they only get away with it because its too much trouble to go after them. In many states its not breaking a law if you cheat on your wife. does that make it ok? If the guy in front of you drops a $20 you wouldnt be breaking a law by keeping it and not saying anything. Obviously you would run over and pick it up and shove it in your pocket before the guy noticed. I wouldnt. I would give back to him since its his. Every one of your arguments on this subject is all about money and the bottom line. "its ok because the retailer would just buy sombody elses copy, so I should sell them mine and save them the trouble" There are many crooks in this industry. MANY! but there are aslo still some honest decent guys out there trying to make a living with thier own hard work.
Steeling is not ok even if you dont get caught.
I also love when guys say every lure is a knock off of something old or there is nothing new left. That has to be the most pathetic excuse to be lazy and not use your own thought or ideas. There are plent of new designs and ideas out there you just have to quit trying to copy other designs and work on your own. Do you honestly think 50 years from now there wont be anything new? well if it werent for guys who actualy design there own things than that would be true. Thank God thats not the case.
You mentioned Delw and Bobs, soo becuase you can buy a mold that makes it ok? YOUR STILL STEELING! Yes I have some of thier molds too, they are very nice. I make some baits out of them but I would never sell them. All my baits that I produce are made from molds that I personaly made.
I understand why guys copy baits. Its fun and easy and can save you some money. Selling them is wrong.
Just because thier are a lot of other guys doing it doesnt justify it.

Here is a thought for all of you with own bait buisiness.
There are thousands upon thousands of guys just like you, making the same baits. copys of copys of copys that are the hot biats of the month. How many of you beleive you cna have a succesful buisiness and make a good living doing this? Verry few succeed at this and usualy they need massproduction capabilities to pull it off. This is very dificult to do for the "little guy"
On the contrary, design your own bait, if the design is good enough and you do your homework and then YOU are the creator and YOU are the one who is making the money and You will establish yourself in the industy. You will most likely be copied but you will still be the original.
If Basstrix puts out another design it will be an instant succes. If one of the knock off co put something out nobody will care.
I am expect to be bashed because I am sure I have struck a nerve but thats ok. I still have no har feelings towards anyof you.

[challenger]

well said mattlures and if you are the same mattlures that make the swim baits , I just want to say you do a great job and I would love to see some one try to copy your work becuse it can not be done.

[millsryno]

I tried to stay out, but I can't...

Matt, I agree with what you say 90%....but...

Your stance that everybody here is stealing and that making knockoffs of other worms is wrong is rediculous. You seem to be pointing fingers at the "little guy" when knocking off designs is a common practice in the industry. How many senko knockoffs are there? Is Zoom frowned upon because they make thier own version of a Senko? I don't think so.

You have valid points that nobody here will likely make the big time by selling a copy of a copy of a copy...but do you think anybody here is really thinking they are going to make their millions doing that? For most everybody here it is a hobby. Part of that hobby, for some, is selling some baits on the side. Most of everybody here still has a regular job. Yeah, it is fun and a little stroke to the ego when somebody shoots you an email and asks if you sell your worms. So what? What is wrong with selling them some baits?? Give me a break!

Isn't this how America works?...somebody invents something...then somebody improves on it...then it evolves into something else...etc. etc. That is how American has operated for the last 200+ years.

If you and your "big time" friends don't like the laws, then go get them changed! To sit here and chastise people for doing what is within their legal and moral rights to do is just plain wrong! That's right, I said their moral rights! You might see it one way, but you know what, others see it the complete opposite way. Who made the first T-Shirt? I guess we should chastise all other T-Shirt makers for using the same design??

For the record, I agree with everybody that has stated it...to infringe on somebody's patent, copyright or trademark is WRONG....whether it is a large company or a small company. What's right is right and what's wrong is wrong. It seems pretty black and white to me that you don't infringe on a company's rights, regardless of who they are or what size they are.

Also, Matt, I am debating the issue, not starting a flame war...please don't take the wrong way.

[Mattlures]

I am in the minority so I will likely get dogpiled but thats ok. I am not chastising, I am encouraging people to do what is right.
ZOOM absolutly did something wrong when they copied the Senko. Maybe not leagaly but moraly. If GY had a patent them it would be leagaly wrong to. Not having the desing pateted doent make it right to copy it just meanst you wont get sued over it.
Yes baits evolve but I would estimate that 98% of the copies are sugnificantly inferior. The original Senko is still the best.
Again just because a bait isnt protected that doesnt make it right to steel it. That is why the whole patent process was started. To keep people from steeling intulectual property. However Patents are not always feesable. I know the reality of the situation. If its not protected it will get ripped off if there is a profit in it. That is the reality. It aint right but thats how it is.
I choose to not copy.

[alsworms]

Tough call for me. I agree with both sides. However, this is one statement I DO NOT agree with.......

Originally Posted by Mattlures

Yes baits evolve but I would estimate that 98% of the copies are sugnificantly inferior. The original Senko is still the best.

LOTS of guys on TU are making (and have been making) better stickbaits than the original senko. Same design, same fall rate, same this, same that, etc. etc.......BUT.....better durability, more color options, and MUCH better prices. Sure......maybe the first guy to "copy" the senko was ethnically wrong in doing so, but if you are attacking those who copy the senko, then you are attacking 90 percent of the plastic manufacturers in business today. Not to mention that I honestly believe a guy who "copies" a bait does so in an effort to improve on that bait, not to sell a direct copy.

Same thing can be said for this Basstrix craze. There are guys who are working diligently to make (and improve upon) these baits. Should I spend a month on the internet searching for Basstrix baits, order them, wait another 3 months to receive my order.............all this AFTER paying 25 bucks for 4 baits?? Should I spend 40 bucks on Ebay and get 4 Basstrix baits now?? Or........should I buy some from a TU member and get a bait that's as good as (if not, superior) than Basstrix, recieve my order in less than a week, and pay half the price??

For me, it's a no-brainer......

[carolinamike]

Matt I see your point of view, and I understand what you are saying totally, but I wonder if you see mine. My customer sought me out to produce the bait, I did not advertise the bait or even offer to make it until after I received the demand, but again it was not an exact copy. There is at least a 20% difference in the bait. You keep using the word stealing. I think this is the term that is upsetting everybody. One side of the bait was completely flat, there were no appendages on the side wings, completely different plastic formula and it came from a mold that was purchased from a company that makes their livelihood from selling molds and other components. My question to you is: Say you have a customer to call whose been buying Castaic Baits products. Although there are a good many similarities they are not your bait. Who modeled after who? If this is a long standing good customer of yours do you not try to fill their request? I didn't steal anything, and I do design my own baits. I specialize in a lot of straight worms, specifically for shaky head fishing. How much more can you do to a straight worm except shorten it, lengthen it, make it fatter, skinnier, or give it a different tail or a different head. And with so many on the market, I would love for someone to come up with something that could be classified as different and new, but I'm afraid no matter what you make or I make, I can sit down with Bass Pro catalog, Cabela's catalog or numerous websites and I guarantee there is always something similar. Not exactly like it, maybe flat sided body, groove sided body, different tail, different head but this is the plastic bait manufacturing life. And in this business, imitation is definitely the highest form of flattery. Notice the word imitation, not exact copy. I'm steadily working everyday in hopes that my company would have the next big thing that everyone wants to copy. The American dream is still alive.
Don't want to bump heads but I don't want to feel like I'm stealing because I filled a customers order after he exhausted every possible way of getting the "Name Brand" bait, and by the way, the flat side and much softer plastic makes for a much more superior bait.