[hawnjigs]

Hey Hawnjigs, could you give us a run-down on your own experience with those fluxing materials?

Since supply is limited in my location I often have to deal with mystery sludge contaminated lead and in my experience out of the many I've tried beeswax flux seemed the most effective at powdering the junk out of the melt. Cost not an issue since candles including beeswax are often a garage sale bargain. Suggest beginning fluxers(outdoors) go straight to solid wax of some kind and not bother with foul smelling and possibly hazardous experiments. Never tried but Marvelux might be a good option indoors. Yes, beeswax does smoke a lot and doesn't seem to flame up in my experience.

[reeves]

Hey guys, this is great dialogue, I am learning more and more so keep posting. Since moving to spincasting, the lead I use must be a pretty exact alloy of lead, tin and antimony to achieve error-free casts. I was buying this already blended from one of the big boys in St. Louis until the prices skyrocket overnight. Now I scrounge up where I can and do a lot of mixing myself. Not exact by any stretch and the relults are obvious when you don't get it right. Occasionaly I still pour from the pot and this fluxing subject has really been of interest to me as I never fluxed either.

Sagacious, you are a boatload of knowledge on lead and I hope you keep the open line as I have learned a bunch from your posts. And Hawn, I feel for you man, being stuck way out there on that island, I appreciate all your posts on the subjects as well. Ever need a hand, just holler.
My thanks to all.

[hawnjigs]

"reeves", haha another non-fluxer out of the closet. US industrial supply price of lead down to $.79 per lb. today from a high of $1.70 last year, maybe your (ex)supplier will adjust price? Making a precision lead alloy outa scrap especially with antimony added gotta be tough!

Definitely, Thanks to "sagacious" for sharing with us, and would like to mention that all comments & questions are valuable in topic discussions and appreciated.

[sagacious]

Originally Posted by cadman

...
The only thing the beeswax does is when its dropped in it smokes a lot.

Originally Posted by hawnjigs

...
Yes, beeswax does smoke a lot and doesn't seem to flame up in my experience.

OK, I'm somewhat perplexed on this point:
Why do you guys allow the beesway flux to smoke?

When fluxing, you're stirring the melt, and stirring always cools the lead. During fluxing, you generally want to keep the temp up (especially during just that short time) to allow for oxide separation and chemical reduction. Note that the oxide scum floating on the melt will always be slightly cooler than the melt itself, and considerably cooler when stirring and skimming it.

Allowing the flux to smoke creates an oxidizing environment, whereas lighting the smoke with a match creates a reducing atmosphere. The flames create a temporary spike in temperature right where and when you need it, and I've found that with some types of lead scrap (especially lead covered with lots of oxide, mixed with a large amount of foreign material, or lead granules) that the additional heat dramatically accelerates and maximizes efficiency of the fluxing process. But even when fluxing tire weights or other scrap lead, lighting the smoke speeds up the fluxing process noticeably.

Then there's the safety factor. Any hydrocarbon flux may spontaneously ignite while fluxing. And as some have noted, it may ignite when you're hovering over the pot and not expecting it to burst into flames. If you light the flux right as the process starts, the flames start and stay controlled, and there are no unexpected high-temp surprises. Beeswax smoke may ignite spontaneously if the temp and conditions are favorable, of course, since that's how beeswax candles work.

Besides that, wax smokes like a house fire, and the smoke lingers when it's not lit, so the pot smokes for a while. When lit, the hydrocarbons are converted to CO and CO2 much faster, and the particulate matter in the smoke is broken down. Stated simply, flames = much less smoke, and better fluxing.

Now, I can understand why one might not wish to light a flame inside a shop or basement, but then again, I can't see why anyone would want billowing smoke (with the implicit risk of fire) in that location either.

I know that beeswax smoke smells grand, but is there something else I'm missing here?

[sagacious]

Originally Posted by reeves

...
Now I scrounge up where I can and do a lot of mixing myself. Not exact by any stretch and the relults are obvious when you don't get it right. Occasionaly I still pour from the pot and this fluxing subject has really been of interest to me as I never fluxed either.
...

Reeves,
You've probably learned a lot by having to blend your own alloys. Either when pouring spincast, or from the pot, adding fluxing to your routine will enhance your results. I would expect that to be especially true when spincasting, as the reduction in both surface oxides and surface tension significantly promotes complete mold fill-out in small cavities, narrow/thin spaces, or detailed molds.

Fluxing (done right, but it's pretty simple) should be one of those things that, once you start doing it, you should see the benefits immediately. Instant gratification, who doesn't like that?

[sagacious]

Originally Posted by reeves

And Hawn, I feel for you man, being stuck way out there on that island
...

Add my sentiments to that! Since Hawnjigs is in a location with some serious limitations on raw materials, I'll bet he doesn't miss a trick!

[hawnjigs]

"sagacious", my allowing smoking flux was from ignorance of match lighting as an additional fluxing tool. Previous flux choice WD-40 would always spontaneously ignite (sometimes quite dramatically!) and since wax didn't I thought smoke was normal to the process. Thanks for the tip, guess I'll need a longer stir spoon. And yup, I can spot potential melt pot fillers at garage sales & swap meets from an exceptional distance.

[sagacious]

Ha ha, very good! I supect that you're ignorant of very little when it comes to lead alloy or tin alloy pouring.

I hear ya, my buddies say I must be able to 'smell' lead from 50 yards away. Like you, if it can be melted, I'm on it!

[cadman]

Originally Posted by sagacious

OK, I'm somewhat perplexed on this point:
Why do you guys allow the beesway flux to smoke?

When fluxing, you're stirring the melt, and stirring always cools the lead. During fluxing, you generally want to keep the temp up (especially during just that short time) to allow for oxide separation and chemical reduction. Note that the oxide scum floating on the melt will always be slightly cooler than the melt itself, and considerably cooler when stirring and skimming it.

Allowing the flux to smoke creates an oxidizing environment, whereas lighting the smoke with a match creates a reducing atmosphere. The flames create a temporary spike in temperature right where and when you need it, and I've found that with some types of lead scrap (especially lead covered with lots of oxide, mixed with a large amount of foreign material, or lead granules) that the additional heat dramatically accelerates and maximizes efficiency of the fluxing process. But even when fluxing tire weights or other scrap lead, lighting the smoke speeds up the fluxing process noticeably.

Then there's the safety factor. Any hydrocarbon flux may spontaneously ignite while fluxing. And as some have noted, it may ignite when you're hovering over the pot and not expecting it to burst into flames. If you light the flux right as the process starts, the flames start and stay controlled, and there are no unexpected high-temp surprises. Beeswax smoke may ignite spontaneously if the temp and conditions are favorable, of course, since that's how beeswax candles work.

Besides that, wax smokes like a house fire, and the smoke lingers when it's not lit, so the pot smokes for a while. When lit, the hydrocarbons are converted to CO and CO2 much faster, and the particulate matter in the smoke is broken down. Stated simply, flames = much less smoke, and better fluxing.

Now, I can understand why one might not wish to light a flame inside a shop or basement, but then again, I can't see why anyone would want billowing smoke (with the implicit risk of fire) in that location either.

I know that beeswax smoke smells grand, but is there something else I'm missing here?

I'm confused, or I just don't understand. Are you telling me that beeswax is not suposed to smoke? As soon as I put it in, I mix the lead with a spoon, to stir up the bees wax. But it still smokes. What am I missing here.........Pleeeeaaaaaaasssssseeee help me.

[JSC]

Man this is one of the most enlightening threads ... I have poured jigs off and on for over 40 years, yes I have "Fluxed" all ways with candle wax (some would burn some would not all ways with smoke) ... But there are several things that have been brought out by you guys with this store house of knowladge on metals that blows me away (Sagacious for one) .. but I never really stirred it .. would skim off as well as scrape down the sides and bottom .. really did not know what the heck was going on except I was getting the trash to the surface .. Thanx for a look into what is going on with fluxing. This is as good a thread as the one about different metals a while back. Wish I could contribute .. all I can do is soak up this Info.
Thanx Again
JSC