joliepa

Question: how would a router table help anyway? is there some kind of attachment that can help with lure shaping?? or is this mostly about dimensioning the initial blocks of wood. (in which case a table saw would do just as good, right?)

I find the idea of "jigs" that help one get repeatable shapes... Interesting and appealing. BUT Without a duplicator , Lathe or CNC how do you make a jig that keeps the shape 'repeatable'? A little bit of brainstorming and googling is fizzling out... CNC/autoshaper/duplicator Is just too darn expensive for me.

I found much of this thread relevant (as well as diemai's informative reply)... http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/index.php?/topic/26708-aussie-timber-crankbait-help/page-3?hl= wobbling action It appears that the "big bill" is required to get a pretty big body into a wide wobble. apparently, the austrialian baits often features cuved bannana shaped baits with an imposing big bill. If I got it right, by applying an omega line tie towards the end of the bill, I might be able to create something with a formidable wide wobble that doesn't dive into the rocks. alternately, smaller and shorter lures do the job. beyond what he posted, diemai's trademark bannana lure (his copy of a lazy ike) seems like an interesting idea as well (with its integrated diving plane)...

if you can get Eagle brand from Lowes, You have a special store. In more Lowes, the concrete sealers are clearly water based and not going to work. Instead, eagle brand is available at home depot. I don't think all home depots have eagle supreme. ... in many places across the country then. I think you'll have to pay extra for what you want.

Once a few seasons back me and my fishing buddy got a hold of some of these "Walleye Runners" from cabelas... he had the idea to grind down the bills a bit to temper that fearsome dive. and ... it didn't work so bad, I suppose. most of the time it would run without blowing out and it didn't Instantly got stuck from a dramatic plunge. on the other hand its tendency to steeply dive and slowly wobble, did make it a serious contendor in some deeper spots (say 8-10') once other baits failed. on the other hand, this haphazard approach compromised the baits stability, and durability. It also did increased the odds of getting stuck espacially as we tried to lever it out of deep water as we reeled towards shore. M I'll try not to ask too many dumb questions, cause I know there's a long 'bananna bait' thread going on (and other banana threads in the archive)... but I'm wondering if people have tackled this design, and I'm really curious about the bill. Is there a reason for its thick parrelel orientation. Well, yes, partially to dive dramatically. but if you made a bait in the bannana shape what would happen in you scaled back to thin lexan and what happens as your bill gets steeper in angle, smaller and the line tie goes back on the nose (where it is for nearly all the casting plugs we throw)? What would be the reasoning in deciding whether to change lip size, shape, angle and line tie?? (I don't even exactly know how my friend was doing to the bill, and all the 'examples' have been lost). i'd appreciate any hints and tips that people have with this basic design and specifically in making it more friendly to wading and casting about a (relatively) shallow river. Where the holes are all ringed with rocks and heavy currents and bigtime deep diver models wouldn't last a cast... PS. I think cabelas model is knock off of a corton cordell lure called a wally diver. Which I have recollections was primarily made to Dredge the bottom of deep lakes trolling with a wide wobbling motion.

you know, I think I will attempt a "grandma" shape this weekend... Here is one HUGE thing I have been finding out about making lures. The first time always seems to go bad. I think the first time, I am just to sloppy and unfamiliar with the process. but after a few mistakes you quickly pick up on exactly what matters and how close it has to be. besides, there are things I want to copy and try. a circle and a line isn't the guide for every lure... so to the newbies, I have changed my mind. Use your templates! but then don't be afraid to ditch one if you don't like the way its going. perhaps you are just not ready for some shapes or possible kinds of lures....

you guys REALLY don't know how much you flatter me. I'm very much a newby builder. on the other hand, I love the methodical approach to lures. and can figure out some trigonometry, from time to time. SO...If you want the test, PM! ha! --- Vodkaman never talked about video analysis of his lures. but with all the insights he had, I'm still thinking he might have tried it ( really don't see how he could get basic Measurement any other way). If any one has any good way to get ahold of him. I'd love to hear him chime in. my methodology admittedly (hows THAT for a highclass word?) could use an upgrade- a bathtub is REALLY not the optimal place to get video of a lures swim. I'm getting less than a quarter second of wobbling. Anyways, Vodkamen talk about a detailed study between frequency and lure shape (and other variables I suppose) that would be very interesting. I wish he'd put more of that online. someone chimed on that thread saying that that measurement should be on the box. this is EXACTLY my line of thought. (this is my absolute favorite post on the whole forum-- http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/index.php?/topic/9007-mathematical-modeling-and-pure-science-of-lure-design ) right now, I haven't gotten my own builds ready for video analysis, but I'm very close on the first couple. I will continue to post when I do.

No... but I wished he'd come back. I've totally pored over ALL his posts. I think I'm walking in some similar footsteps, for sure.

That looks REALLY good to me. TY. I bet per inch that stuff is MUCH cheaper than suspendstrips (dots). their big roll is $38 for 36feet

I Keep chipping away at the footage, and looking for more patterns. What I'm noticing is all the noise in the data. Something I consider a variable, like frequency, Have ALOT of run to run variation. It makes it a little hard to pin down the stats on these lures, espacially as I do lure to lure comparisons. --- There still are some easy correlations. for example, the maximum wobbling angle is correlated to frequency. (more frequency = less angle). and the wobbling angle is correlated to speed. (more speed=more angle). --- Another huge variable is Drag. Drag doesn't PER SE correlate to either angle or frequency. But more drag + a faster, bigger wobble) correlates to rhythmic path in the water. Calling this movement 'Hunting' though I think makes more of the movement than it is. The rythmic path back is just an indicator that the momentum of the lure is LESS than friction. .. I'll dub it (then), prehunting. since it is the beginnings of the highly sought after hunting movement. so that opens another bunch of correlations. Less mass, More drag and more wobbling = more prehunting. more friction, big wobbles and lots of prehunting = a bait that doesn't respond well to a twitch or jerk. on the other hand, in bigger currents you can get away with more of these movements while still keeping your retrieval speed low. --- so in short, without better tools, a real tank, a consistant way of pulling a lure, a way of measuring the resistance to flow... we have some lots of variability and 3 major measurements. Change of Angle during a cycle, Timing of the cycle (frequency), and the speed of the lure. all of which can be dramatically altered by the force pulling the lure. BUT if you're just striving to make lure to lure comparisons. You should just pull a bunch of lures in a bathtub or pool and start recording. A) have enough water to not touch the bottom (obviously much easier in a pool than a bathtub) Keep your pull as consistant as possible. Do NOT go by lure speed, try to pull hard and use the fact that a lure with less drag will go faster. C) pull strait and keep it tuned. that way you don't have trigonometric distortions in your picture. along those lines keep your lure motion perpendicular to the camera. Measure in the center. D) and last. There are many clever and useful ways to measure variability. But with these kinds of rough measurements, a simple average measurement is sufficient. Do things multiple times, so you have an average. Remember the statistical truth, a number measured repeatably becomes more accurately. --- as for the video littleriver. Step2 is to get the software and start making measurements. I get so lost trying to make accurate statements from underwater video. A few of you just get the time-tested Knack to look down and say. wow what a wide(narrow) wobble. but with it broken down frame my frame some simple math and it seems clearer to me. espacially if you've gotten a good typical stable wobble. I think not all the wobbles I am describing are stable. In time I hope to have an answer for a much better test tank. That though is a topic for another thread (and more money )

Well I can now confirm that my local walmart's brand of concrete sealants will NOT work. ClearKrete Gloss Sealer is water based and resists "moisture" but is not waterproof. It sounds like we can make no sweeping statements about the suitability of concrete sealers. Some seem to be more like the typical polyurethane used on woods. Yellowing and not particularly water proof. and some seem to work. I vow to use spar urethane until I find money and availability to something better and I really Don't want the expense of buying something that will have exorbitant shipping fees. But unfortunately, spar urethane treated stuff turns yellow at the drop of a hat and needs very,very little UV exposure before the whites go a little "off". If I can't get Eagle supreme ( I don't think I can), I'm going to talk to the sherwin williams paint store. I think THEY might have a concrete sealer that would work. H&G is their brand.

I've been chipping away at the first few of them over the weekend. In thinking through the title at little... I think I may be misleading. There IS a template. Indeed there is a pretty detailed shape and its not that far from many other lures. But instead of getting some kind shape online, then cutting around it. The idea is to start with a couple circles and a centerline and a few other measurements. with the point that this design needs to be simple to cut, a minimal amount of curves, with as many strait lines as possible. In the interest that some other newby's might want to try this shape (or approach) here is the rest of the build. First with a ruler and a compass the shape is sketched onto the sides of the lure With a coping saw cut the shape. Cut the lip slot with a miter. now carve and shape. Given the dimensions of the block (1" x 5/8" wide) the resulting lure is somewhat flat sided. at this point my thoughts about carving seem to be Right on. make things simple and its easier to keep things symmtrical. I don't know if the lure is symmtrical ENOUGH, but it is a far better job than my first attempt. Maybe I'm just doing it with more confidence cause its MY design... and I love doing things my way.

you hear alot of recommendations for epoxy topcoats BECAUSE of concerns about reactions between the paints and topcoat. my understanding is that it is particularly inert to just about all kinds of paints.as for acrylics, I have been painting with acrylic myself and I have seen no issues with compability. I've been using spart urethane and have seen no reactions between acrylic paint and rethane. Keep in mind, though, my recently painted lures will look terrible if they were to be exposed to sunlight. it'd be good to have a topcoat than can take some sun and so I intend to try another topcoat, when I get the chance. personal lifestyle here have made this a low priority of things to figure out. I'm an absolute VAMPIRE for fishing, and its almost always at night. In all other ways the spur urethane seems a great top coat. Its got a softer surface that doesn't easily scratch or chip, but very waterproof, and glossy and beautiful. me. anyways, though I'm a newby I have relevant experience. I've put devcon 2ton over folk art acrylic paints. No issues with chemical compatability. though, you might find that getting a consistant coating over you lure isn't particularly easy, and thats even with a lure turner. there's lots of tutorial content on how to apply devcon. If thats you path, good luck. In the future I intend to drop some cash for walmart's version of concrete sealer.

and one name that I'm NOW intrigued with... the "pikie". been a staple of the musky dudes for a long time. I thinking spherical lure, tapered at the butt with a cut out head and a metal bill. 6-8" long. Any body here ever make one?

I'm loving this thread! I'd like to put together a musky (pike) lure together in a little bit. as you know I've been working on my first few 4.5" walleye lures... the issue here is that while I have a long history and a lot of thoughts about what design makes for a good river walleye lure. frankly I have next to none about a musky lure. I don't even know what size of wood to start with? (a 2x4"? ) the only two generalized features I've ever been ever to understand both sound pretty tricky. no bill (a glidebait?) and perhaps jointed. If you guys want to start dropping names of common (and easier to carve desings) I'd be much appreciative. Just for kicks I am going to google "musky lures (crankbaits)"..

oh, and I'll add that if you haven't checked out some of the really ingenious ways members on here are doing fish scales. you ought to. with a few stencils and some skill, its simply amazing how much they enhance the Look. whether you're out to imitate real life, or just want to make something truly eye caching. Let me know if you have interest and I can send you the link. I think it was first public on stripersonline (SOL) by a guy nicknamed fatfingers.

I love it! I think there's alot of room for people who want to channel the artistic side of the hobby. Have you had any interest in selling them? do they generate buzz in some of the craft shows your wife is selling at?? I enjoy best the 2nd lure down, left side.

so more comparisons last night and I need to add another very relevant variable. Speed. Comparing the rogue with a husky jerk its dramatic. the husky jerk goes nearly twice as fast. this is a problematic variable. what really is changing is the lures friction through the water. on the other hand, speed is also highly variable on the cranking force your exerting on the bait. with less of a night and day difference, I might not even know by video measurements whether small differences in speed was due to how a pulled it through the water. but from the vantage point of a fish, its huge. The big thumping action of the rogue is at least partially due to the fact that its got a lot of alot of friction and that friction translated in movement would make a big difference on how the lures vibration would be felt in the fishes lateral line. Even just its average speed could be very significant in the bite. does the quick sudden darting of bait a little ways away catch the fishes attention? or does the fish get less interested in a bait that seems too energetic? if the fish is following the lure does a quicker dart (brought back in the paused style I use so much), prompt the feeding response or does it end the whole thing. if I see a fish following my lure- do I stop, speed up or change the lures direction. I've had all three work, and in just as many other situations, it fails. the point here is to understand each lure by its video footage so I can get a variety. But it will be a difficult to be certain of this important characteristic. if I had enough money for fancy tools, I suppose one could imagine a rig set up that would pull line at a known and constant force... for now I will just have to try pull hard and the same with different lures and see the results. but this exercise is not really as much about good science as it might appear. I'm only using caveman tools to understand lure motion. Half this board is prolly getting a lot more insight into similar test swims. But looking down on the wobbling lure, my eyes have prolly finding describable, significant differences. on the other hand, this is going VERY slow. One computer has the software, another has excel. and the all important angles have to be handwritten from the software to excel. I expect to analyze at least 2 other lures next week. Pokey as i am, I could still MAKE a lure faster than I can analyze a few seconds worth of video. LOL

WOW. personally I don't get this. ! If you were going to blow that kind of money.. you might as well start scraping away lucky craft lures and putting your own paint job on. If you want the exercise in painting there are many,many places selling plastic blanks. weighting, bills and all that are already figured out, and I'm just generally loving the ones I completed. (even if I am a pretty unskilled at painting lures). You even 'save' from money, though Not for a long long time If you had to set up shop (like I did)... and onthe other hand, to be able carve a real homecrafted balsa wood lures would be a huge breakthrough in your fishing abilities. No more thoughtless mind games with brandname lures,you systematically experiment with action, depths, and color until you find the lure of the day in a way you'd struggle to do so with brandname stuff. I'm totally understanding the need to tackle smaller challenges before bigger ones though. and I think, once you've got a rough ability to paint lures (in color schemes you think would work); if you don't want to dive into making a whole lure from scratch... janns Netcraft has "turned" balsa blanks. Weighting, through wire, and putting in the bill right is still something you'd have to figure out, but at least, carving wise you wouldn't have the extra challenge of trying to carve a symmetrical "good enough" lure. I'm not entirely sure though how good an spherical turned lure would work. perhaps you would still have a bit of carving to get into a more typical shape. much as I wanted to ease into this hobby, I try to remember the big picture. for the last several years I was the guy with 3 rogues that wandered all over the river. Lose a couple and I'm hunting through the piggy bank to buy some more. There wasn't room for much of an assortment, and even when I did, little understanding about what makes a BomberA different anyways. One of my friends approach the problem much better. a better stocked assortment of lures means they can change lures to better meet the conditions. He's looking down as the lure comes back and gets a feel for the wobble. when it happens, when it doesn't. How strong it does. He has developed an intuitive sense between wide slow wobbles and tighter quicker ones. and switches his lures more methodically. In the Big picture, redoing the paint job of someone elses lures isn't going to really going to get you to the place where you've mastered understanding the plug. I reminding myself, that despite my limitations this skill will be worth it. If thats not your quest, I wonder, why paint plugs at all? the world is full of many great plugs and this board is full of many talented custom lure crafters. Yes, it would be a bit expensive to seek out some of the handcrafted balsa plugs- but on the other hand, making your own, you'd just up spending the money in supplies, time, and failures. (the long rambling post is partially because I was thinking of the very doing the very same thing, until I thought through it some)

. well , no I was taking about the "plastic dip" you intend to coat the lure. I was not talking about the lure itself. I have heard of many kinds of top coats but not "liquid plastic" unless you are referring to urethane.

can you attach a photo or something of the product? Top coats are absolutely the most talked about thing on the whole forum, and there is a endless demand for something waterproof, rock resistance, non-toxic, inexpensive, easy to use, non-yellowing, UV stable and stores well.

When I had my rough newby experience with D2t I figured it was the temperature more than anything else that did me in. If you're up here in the North and epoxing in an unheated garage, its not going to spread evenly even with a lure turner. People have talked about using space heaters and hair dryers. I just went with another kind of top coat. the other issue with D2t that is always discussed is that the glue needs really well mixed. on the other hand, I think if the glue is rock hard in a day or so, you can rule that out as an issue.

If you find the file Travis, I'd greatly appreciate it. the "rogue" design is very solid for river walleyes. On the other hand for photos. I've got photos. It just looks really hard to form. my first attempt at a curved surface was anything but, symmetrical. Lure #2 needed to be something a little easier to form. There's still a huge learning curves for ballast and hardware. I was reading old posts though, and one of the regulars pointed out how impossible it was to create a symmetrical shape "by eye" alone. I'm thinking the secret to symmetry. (which is the first and most important thing for a newby to figure out), is a methodical procedure in carving. and that after he has spent some real time in drawing up strait lines. Lure #2 may not be by template, but its a very reproduceable method. 3 circles at precise intervals. and finished to a very solid common shape, basically the shad rap (or if you will an elongated version of Bob P's avatar). ---- By the way if my hardheaded stubborn nature isn't obvious enough, know that I greatly appreciate ALL of the advice. I've resolved 'to do it my way' MOSTLY 'cause part of this hobby is figuring out whether something will work and because I'd like to understand what doing XYZ does to a plug. but I'm sure to botch up many more plugs than just the first one, and some clever better way of doing it, will greatly appeal to me once my own attempts have failed. ---- I'd be really thrilled to make a rogue or something that is very similar to one though. Have you travis fished your rogue lure. was it as good at catching fish?

ahh.. hence the importance of Static angle and how it looks sitting in water, etc. --- unfortunately, my goto baits are all beyond me. my first lure was this paper cutout on the internet and model #2 is more like, whats the simplest way to make this symmetrical and strait. I intend to try to get something that looks a little more like a usually throw as model #3. alterations of the basic block of wood will definitely help me get closer to the classic rogue/huskyjerk shape (but I have to wait to get access to a table saw-- no more handcuts!!!) -- so the approach is going to have to be scientific. current thinking : Use archimedes dunk test to get close to the right amount of lead. With modeling clay, split shot, and duct tape; Drill hole, place split shot, fill with clay, duct tape. pull it through water. PLAN B is to pour over past threads about weighting baits. I kind of remember people hanging weights on fishing line slipped on the body with a rubber band. But if the weight placement is important - I don't see how thats going to show me what the lure will do once the wieghts have been placed in the lures.... --- and of course I will try to save the spiraling lure. first I need to get the lip notch right.

More measurements are done and analzyed. This time I set up on a tripod to try to avoid any kind of movement of the camera influencing the measurements. Fishing for walleyes I kind of had the thought that I would look at some move-pause behavior. Like SO many things though, a lot of times what you think would work doesn't and you need to reassess what is practical. In truth, as the lure responds to a brief gentle tug, its behavior is generally pretty erratic and it generally arcs around. But there's simply no repeatable math to describe that arc. sometimes It isn't even an arc. --- so looking at the actual footage what is reasonalbe and what isn't. well First, it seems to me that Frequency, the changing angle of the lure to the line seems constant or nearly constant. On the other hand, the maximum amount of angle the lure makes is highly depenedant on speed. (or current which doesn't apply in a bathtub). I think there's lure to lure differences on maximum angle, and much of that has to do with weight distribution. But its nothing thats going to be easy to pin to a number. Another VERY interesting number surfaced when I attempted to pin down Where the lure was actually rotating from. if you look at the pattern of plots of the front of the lure, you see a cyclical pattern. Next look at the pattern of plots at the rear of the lure. you can use trigonometry to find the pattern of any specific spot on the lure, as it moves. the axis of rotation should be where the minimal amount of cyclical movement is. Is the lure is going exactly Strait...then there no cyclical movment at the axis of rotation and the movement is linear. If on the other hand, the axis of rotation is moving back and forth with a strait pull, than that is The HUNTING movement, yes? and This is where it gets very interesting. Drumroll Please.... My goto LURE an out of the box rattling rogue HAS a slight hunting movement. All the old timers here (and novices that study lots of pages of older posts) that hunting is both a very sought characteristic and almost never present in a commercial lure. too close to Instable behavior. well. perhaps NOT as uncommon as you'd think if you study the bait hard enough. mind you, I think on here, when people talk of hunting cranks they mean big easy too see movements. but I'm only pondering outloud. I've heard about hunting cranks but never saw one. and if you watch thing in the video you'd be pretty unsure it exists either. On the other hand, I'm sure of my math. Attached is a plot of 8frames and there's no way you can place any one point on the lure without showing a small cyclical motion against a line of linear travel. PS. being all new to "Hunting motion" topic. please do correct me if I'm jumping to the wrong conclusion.