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Troutfishing303

Table salt for baits?

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6 hours ago, mark poulson said:

Someone here posted here about how using Kosher salt didn't affect the color, so I tried it and found that it worked really well.  I don't grind it, I just make sure there are no big clumps, and I stir it right before I pour, to be sure the salt is in suspension.

Nice, I'll try Kosher salt out before I go buy a 50lb bag of glass bead media (I'm still thinking about glass bead media though).  Thanks @mark poulson

46 minutes ago, Travis said:

A few things going on in regards to light transmission and suspension of salt.  

First all these salts are the same as in NaCl.  Where they differ is  purity/additives.   Salt by it very nature is problematic in that it picks up water.    NaCl is used to calibrate some instruments that measure water uptake based on its very well studied water adsorption.  So unless you store your salt properly and dry it you are adding some water to your plastic during the heating process.  Adding some cloudiness to the end product if not all removed (not a big issue as often gets boiled off during heating).  Additionally to counteract salts water loving tendencies manufactures place anti caking agents in it to avoid it turning into a brick (and iodized typically). So you have impurities playing a role in regards light transmission.  Other issues that cause cloudiness are result of tackling the suspension issue..  

The salt crystal shape plays a role in suspension.  Table salt and others are cubodial.  The shape results in crystals that don't suspend readily.  So guys grind it to make the particles smaller but in doing so exponentially increase the surface area and further cause issues with transparency (lack of).    Sort of like  fill a glass with ice and pour a margarita mix over it versus putting that same ratio in your blender.  You also are adding defects in the crystal in the process.  Think of safety glass: pre and after hitting it with a hammer.  

Kosher, Maldon, and other salts prized by chefs are different in shape.  Kosher typically is forced into a flat shape under pressure to form flakes.  So take two cubes the same size/mass.  Take the second cube and compress it flat.  Drop them in a liquid guess which one hits the bottom first.  The shapes vary in regards to displacement.   The flat shape will displace more plastic and will sink slower than the cube and is the reason Kosher salts suspend better in comparison to table (cubodial) salt.  Cargill uses a process called Alberger process to make some of their salts.  It results in concaved plate/flake.  These salts Kosher, maldon, the Cargill select products are typically larger particle size to boot so often get the best of both worlds... larger crystals (less defects and less surface area) with a shape  but do to the shape suspend better than cubes.  Additionally they often don't have anticaking agents.

 

 

@TravisThanks for that explanation!  I had a lot of questions in my head about Kosher salt and you hit the nail on the head on all of them.  That flat surface area makes a lot of sense and a huge difference in everything.  Plus the purity.  I like it!  Thanks again.

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Glass beads can be a very satisfactory way to go also.  Plenty of threads here on the subject.

You get increased clarity with them,  no storage issues,  and a bait that is much stronger.  It can damage and injector but from most accounts besides replacing an o-ring good go go for years.  I forget who had a video (That Guy Skimpy?) comparing salt bait and glass bead bait durability.   The glass bead senko will stretch some and doesn't break near as easy as a salt bait.

 

 

Edited by Travis
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@Travis That was exactly what I was looking for!  Excellent info there.  I wonder if the larger grit GBM (glass bead media) will be more clearer than the smaller grit since there would be less media per square millimeter in the bait...It sucks how it scratches your injectors though.  That's crazy how glass can scratch aluminum that badly. 

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Personally I don't get too hung up on the anti caking agents.  Griding/flouring salt caused much more issues in regards to dulling the baits.   I believe the Kosher salt I used was Diamond Crystal Kosher that I ended up  getting at a health food place.  They had a few others but I was only trying the Kosher to see how it differs from the usual salts I had used in the past.  Not worth paying more from my experience.

The glass beads will give the clearest baits.  I would stick with typical no 8 (70 to 100) bead.  If you can find small sample packs of 7 or 6 to try out.  Just make sure getting bead and not abrasive.

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2 hours ago, Travis said:

Personally I don't get too hung up on the anti caking agents.  Griding/flouring salt caused much more issues in regards to dulling the baits.   I believe the Kosher salt I used was Diamond Crystal Kosher that I ended up  getting at a health food place.  They had a few others but I was only trying the Kosher to see how it differs from the usual salts I had used in the past.  Not worth paying more from my experience.

The glass beads will give the clearest baits.  I would stick with typical no 8 (70 to 100) bead.  If you can find small sample packs of 7 or 6 to try out.  Just make sure getting bead and not abrasive.

@Travis Glass beads sounds like the best one.  It sucks how it can ruin your injectors and possibly other equipment.  I will still look into the beads though.

 

2 hours ago, Bass-Boys said:

is having the clearest bait for the fish or the fisherman ?

@Bass-Boys  It's for both.  The fish probably don't care whether it's opaque, clear, or super clear.  Making cool looking baits gives fishermen confidence which I think plays a huge part in being successful at fishing soft plastics. 

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On 7/16/2019 at 9:20 PM, Travis said:

A few things going on in regards to light transmission and suspension of salt.  

First all these salts are the same as in NaCl.  Where they differ is  purity/additives.   Salt by it very nature is problematic in that it picks up water.    NaCl is used to calibrate some instruments that measure water uptake based on its very well studied water adsorption.  So unless you store your salt properly and dry it you are adding some water to your plastic during the heating process.  Adding some cloudiness to the end product if not all removed (not a big issue as often gets boiled off during heating).  Additionally to counteract salts water loving tendencies manufactures place anti caking agents in it to avoid it turning into a brick (and iodized typically). So you have impurities playing a role in regards light transmission.  Other issues that cause cloudiness are result of tackling the suspension issue..  

The salt crystal shape plays a role in suspension.  Table salt and others are cubodial.  The shape results in crystals that don't suspend readily.  So guys grind it to make the particles smaller but in doing so exponentially increase the surface area and further cause issues with transparency (lack of).    Sort of like  fill a glass with ice and pour a margarita mix over it versus putting that same ratio in your blender.  You also are adding defects in the crystal in the process.  Think of safety glass: pre and after hitting it with a hammer.  

Kosher, Maldon, and other salts prized by chefs are different in shape.  Kosher typically is forced into a flat shape under pressure to form flakes.  So take two cubes the same size/mass.  Take the second cube and compress it flat.  Drop them in a liquid guess which one hits the bottom first.  The shapes vary in regards to displacement.   The flat shape will displace more plastic and will sink slower than the cube and is the reason Kosher salts suspend better in comparison to table (cubodial) salt.  Cargill uses a process called Alberger process to make some of their salts.  It results in concaved plate/flake.  These salts Kosher, maldon, the Cargill select products are typically larger particle size to boot so often get the best of both worlds... larger crystals (less defects and less surface area) with a shape  but do to the shape suspend better than cubes.  Additionally they often don't have anticaking agents.

 

 

This should be a sticky at the top of the Soft Baits Forum.  So much great information.  Thank you Travis.

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On 7/14/2019 at 10:41 PM, Troutfishing303 said:

@Baitjunkys what do you use to make your baits sink like a Senko if you don't mind me asking.  I have both floating and sinking formula plastisol.  The sinking formula doesn't sink fast like a Senko so I think an additive like salt or glass beads will be necessary.

Sorry I totally missed this, I use Suspendasol from Spike it, Aka lureworks.. Its not super great in the nuker, I wish they would put out a new microwave version of it tho. I had suggested to some guys mix it 50/50 with std plastisol and said it worked great

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Here's an update just in case someone wants to know what I came up with.  I bought Kosher Sea Salt and Morton Table Salt.  I use a 50/50 mix and grind it for about 3-4 seconds with a coffee grinder.  I just make sure not to make it into a powder but I still want to grind it to crush both types of salts down a little bit.  Grinding will help with the suspension of the salt and the 50/50 mix helps with the clarity but there is still a noticeable change in color.  I have not tried the glass beads yet since I don't want to scratch up my injector.  Maybe some day down the line but I think this mix is working well for me.  Thanks to this forum and everyone here for helping me understand how to use salt in my baits.

Edited by Troutfishing303
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If you use virgin glass beads, they shouldn't scratch your injector.  

Bear in mind I'm just a hobby pourer, and make senkos with glass beads half a dozen times a year, but, when I do, I make big batches and multiple pours, all with both salt (for flavor) and glass beads (for weight and color retention).

I've been using them for ten years, and my injector is still fine.

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3 hours ago, Senkosam said:

Is flavor more for the angler or the fish ? If so, dropping baits into a can of sardine oil may be the ticket. :unsure:

Sam,

In my experience it is for the fish.

I think the salt makes the fish hold on longer.  Some baits have pork fat in them, and they work, too.

Scents, like sardine oil, disburse in the water around a bait, so they make a little scent/flavor cloud around the baits, and help fish find and hold onto baits.

There are some scents and baits, like Smelly Jelly and Chompers, that I won't use, because they are too strong for my nose, but I think they do work as fish attractants.

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Maybe it's possible I could catch more fish taking into account fish senses of taste/smell, but 40-100 fish on most outings make the claim less significant where and how I fish - even under a float. Even catfish have been biting my lures and they feed much of the time based on scent trails.

Edited by Senkosam
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3 hours ago, Senkosam said:

Maybe it's possible I could catch more fish taking into account fish senses of taste/smell, but 40-100 fish on most outings make the claim less significant where and how I fish - even under a float. Even catfish have been biting my lures and they feed much of the time based on scent trails.

Clearly you don't need any help!  ;O)

 

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I’m wondering has anyone tried the HDS sinking additive by Do it? It’s suppose to be a replacement for Salt.  
 

Here is what Do it says about it. 
 

The benefits of using HDS Additive vs salt:

1) Increases plastic durability without impacting formulas action
2) Specifically formulated for plastic
2) Less discoloration of baits (requires less colorant vs salt)
3) Doesn't degrade bait durability like salt (actually increases durability)
4) Suspends in plastic better than salt
5) Doesn't require softener to maintain formula specific action
 
Can anyone tell me the pros and cons. What their experience was with using it? 

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On 4/16/2020 at 6:49 AM, ACA said:

I’m wondering has anyone tried the HDS sinking additive by Do it? It’s suppose to be a replacement for Salt.  
 

Here is what Do it says about it. 
 

The benefits of using HDS Additive vs salt:

1) Increases plastic durability without impacting formulas action
2) Specifically formulated for plastic
2) Less discoloration of baits (requires less colorant vs salt)
3) Doesn't degrade bait durability like salt (actually increases durability)
4) Suspends in plastic better than salt
5) Doesn't require softener to maintain formula specific action
 
Can anyone tell me the pros and cons. What their experience was with using it? 

I have used it. It does add durability. If you use it, don’t add softener as you would with salt. My guess is they make it with a softener component in it. If you use the HDS and add softener, the baits will come out sticky. Unlike with salt, the finished baits will not absorb moisture and discolor. I hate that about salt...it attracts moisture. I don’t know about the less discoloration deal. Most times if the color isn’t what I want I keep messing with it until it’s what I’m looking for.

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