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azsouth

Getting crank baits to hunt

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DOH!  I just realized you are in Arizona too.  I'm sure slow sometimes.  LOL.  We should hook up on the Colorado River sometime.  I fish out of Fisher's Landing a lot, but I also know most of the dirt launches in stretches of river that you can't get to from there.  

 

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SlowFish that is the lure I mentioned in an earlier post, thanks for sharing that. There was a video on youtube several years ago that showcased and explainted the theroy and reasoning, along with action and results. Very cool.

azsouth, great work explaining how you arrived at your conclusion. Several years ago when I had the test tank I had planned on trying something like this, never got around to it, to busy I guess, but great work anyway and thanks for sharing.

Dave, I think we talked about this sometime ago, I was on a Japaneese Crankbiat kick and then swithced to your Hunting theroy because it called to me. Like I said in previous post's I have had success using Vodkaman's theroy and method, which in short is making the Diving bill longer and trimming it to get the desired action. There is alot more to it but that is the skinny of it. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I've even got myself in trouble or accused of absurdity when I mentioned this, the thought of tuning your crankbaits can be a touchy subject with some builders.

So in general one thing I've learned from several guys here on TU, theres a lot of information that can be applied if we are only willing to think outside the box, or try something that does not makes sense at the time. When I take a dozen or more crankbasits to the lake my fishing partner and others look at me like I'm crazy and ask why do you spend so much time tuning crankbaits? HeHe! I build my crankbaits in weights, diving bill lengths, design and other ideas for a purpose, which is build a crankbiat for each application I think I need, and to try to perfect the action to the best of my ability, which does include tuning. Which brings us to whole other subject we can discuss on another thread.

It's ideas, thoughts and applied science that makes this stuff happen so once agian I tip my Hat to you guys here on TU.

Rich  

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40 minutes ago, CNC Molds N Stuff said:

DOH!  I just realized you are in Arizona too.  I'm sure slow sometimes.  LOL.  We should hook up on the Colorado River sometime.  I fish out of Fisher's Landing a lot, but I also know most of the dirt launches in stretches of river that you can't get to from there.  

 

Yes sir! I fish 2-3 times a week in Yuma ( my job has me there that much ) but no boat over there, so I fish from the bank.

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RPM - good post, yes, good description of my method. I have discussed the double lip idea with a few members so forgive me for not recalling specifics.

AZSouth - the best way to manage videos is to upload onto YouTube, then use the link YouTube will give you and paste into your TU post. This way you are not using up TUs limited resources.

Dave

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52 minutes ago, azsouth said:

here are some videos, not the best but you get the idea.

https://youtu.be/KPsVzycUTf0

https://youtu.be/YY0KLwPxOkY

https://youtu.be/XjENNdaTFR4

Where actions like that really shine is for trolling lures where you don’t have the same ability to apply action on the retrieve 

This in my opinion is where hunters need to be marketed not the bass fishing market that is more about casting. 

Something to consider and maybe be a venture for something to do on the side to see how it goes. I think you have something there but you will need to apply it correctly and get it known on your own 

 

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don't have the money/time to do more.....I am on call 24/7/365..... it is just what I can do with the time I have left over.

So I wonder how many ideas have gone by the way side just because.

The funny thing is I have a few more things that I am working on that are actually working versions.  

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It occurred to me today, revelations here may be part of what made the Bass-Oreno such a titan.  If my replica is anything like the original, cranking it gives a really erratic action, a hunt.  Now we've seen that a single bait can take multiple actions and add them into a hunting action.

It's the huge cylindrical body that does it.  A cylinder moving sideways through the water will vibrate side-to-side. (try it with your rod)  So when you crank a bass-oreno, both the lip and the body are imparting action at different frequencies, making it hunt.

I summed a few cosines to show what I mean.  (The line traces the position of the lure as it moves, if you can't guess.)  The bottom cosine  is the sum of the top two.  What's interesting is whether the higher frequency belongs to the larger cosine (which would be the primary action, the lip, having the most oomph) or the smaller (the secondary action, a blade tail or the body.)  If the primary action is faster, the bait has a mostly regular action that moves side to side a bit.  If the secondary action is faster, it's way more erratic, and that's what we're calling a hunt.

This would explain why willow and indiana blades worked, but not colorado.  The colorado either overpowers the lip or is too slow.  Also, to verify that I'm not pulling math out of my ass, I looked closely at the video of the 1.5.  It dips twice to the right, then once to the left, just like the second graph.  The math definitely has more to it, but I'm not ME so bite me.  

image.png

image.png

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Not saying your math is right or wrong, but there is a difference between book and actual life. The Colorado is still stable and stays in a straight line on a retrieve even with a 7.1 reel, with the math saying it would run to the right is not so.

simple solution... make the the modification and put it on a tuned 1.5.... it will track straight.

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Yeah it's a simplification and a guess at that.  oops, I thought you had said the colorado didn't work.  I was modelling to fit results, not running a simulation, so I was shooting to miss there.

I didn't say baits would run to the side though.  I said they'd spend more time on one side of center.  They'll still track straight.

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I have posted this complex sinusoidal idea many times, in the last post of comments page 2 for example. I have even drawn the graphs on post No19 of this link. I might have posted some 14 years ago when I first thought of the idea and experimented with it, but may have kept it to myself at that time.

I am very impressed that you arrived at the graphs independently, good engineering mind. Simple harmonic motion is always on an architect’s mind when designing tall thin structures or long bridges. There have been famous disasters due to combinations of SHM and vortex shedding.

I do think that the double sinusoidal action has a chance of an explanation for your tail-spin lure, but not the Bass-Oreno, that is more likely caused by my definition of hunting, the lip passing 90° on the retrieve. On the tail-spin, the two actions are quite separated.

Here is a video of a lure that I was experimenting with called ‘Big Ed’. It is a soft bait with a bulbous nose and a tail boot. The large sinusoidal motion is too slow to be assigned regular vortex shedding and so I am inclined to think that a complex sinusoidal action is going on. See what you think.

Dave

 

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I'm in awe.   I still think that the body of a bait itself has an oscillating force, except where the shape itself cuts or bleeds the turbulence away.  The Yo-Zuri knuckle bait is built on that principle, but most crankbaits have their teardrop shape to avoid the secondary action.  Could you link to where you explain 90° theory?  I'd love to read on that too.

I've accidentally made a bait or two with your lazy 'S' action.  They're tall and thin (1/4") with a long-ish bill, low weighting, & a high line tie.  I had no clue why they swam perfectly upright in an 'S', but now I do.  Might even be an ideal design, because the flat sides resist pitching.

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Carbite - Message sent.

You must consider the flowing water when thinking about multiple inputs. The body of water moves as one. All the disturbances, lip, body, spinner etc. the water has to interact with as one flow. It is a difficult concept to explain, you need to have a good think about it all.

Dave

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