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Bruce County Brook Trout

You've created a brand new lure! Congratulations

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Hello, everyone

This topic has been covered before, many times, all over the place, new ideas, patents and prototypes etc.. I'm going to post a whole bunch of links from great members on this site, and other Interesting sites I've found. Then I want to explain what I would do, and take any advice/ suggestions anyone might have thanks.

 

https://patents.google.com/patent/US2817921A/en

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4671007A/en

https://m.bassmaster.com/tips/how-invent-bass-lure

https://www.sportfishingmag.com/fishing-lure-designers-who-have-changed-tackle-industry/

https://www.ryanmoodyfishing.com/fishing-lure-design-with-dave-killalea/

https://www.ifish.net/threads/wierd-and-funny-fish-hook-patents.3581/

https://www.ifish.net/threads/patent-attorney-invention-advice.1580257/

https://www.ifish.net/threads/patents.376874/

https://www.ifish.net/threads/patent-info.87214/

https://www.ifish.net/threads/how-to-patent-a-new-hunting-gear-idea.422008/

https://www.ifish.net/threads/protecting-ideas.70530/

https://www.ifish.net/threads/selling-an-idea.163059/

http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/profile/49034-spins/

https://www.aquascapeaddiction.com/articles/how-many-senses-do-fish-have

https://homeluremaking.blogspot.com/2012/12/how-to-make-balsa-fishing-lure-looking.html

https://www.ifish.net/threads/anyone-need-5000-00.77480/

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/fusion-360-design-validate/i-will-pay-for-help-on-designing-prototypes/td-p/6230676

I've created what I think is a new lure design.

Members here could tell me quick if it's new, and if it'll work. But my idea beforehand is to send it to a dozen people, who would want to have them, maybe test them, and be the proff that this is my idea. When the lures start to arrive I would post all the pictures and details on how to build the lures. If someone wants to buy the components and bend up the wire then great. Maybe I'll trade a few here in the classifieds. If a company is lurking and they see a possibility to make money, maybe they'll negotiate a deal for the idea, and have their lawyers file for patents and fight with whomever.

I'm a simple man, I would be happy with anything really, maybe your the same. If I'm unsuccessful and you never see my lure at bass pro, which most likely, then oh well. Hopefully someone really enjoys my lure and builds some for friends.

But I hope maybe we could have a way here, where this could work out for someone from this site. One day you'd know the guy or girl, who invented that lure, that won that tournament somewhere, or is sold a bass pro. Maybe someone here will have a original prototype.

I don't know, what do you think? what would you do?. Is this already being done or has been tried ? Does the lure contest preform this already? Did anyone ever try the spins electroreceptor attactor?

Thanks in advance to anyone taking the time to respond here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I have given this subject a LOT of thought; what to do with a new lure design.

A - Design and build a unique lure that catches more fish than any other lure.
B - Develop a low volume production process that guarantees a repeatable product.
C - Issue the lure to testers. Beware of family and friends, you need honest feedback.

If you get passed A, B & C, then the subject of patents must be addressed.

Do you intend to sell the design to a company?

If so then quality, robust patents need to be put in place before you go any further. If you put product on the market before a patent is in place then you risk losing the patent. Even 3rd party testing is a risk. Selling to a company is not as easy as it sounds. Companies will not even look at your product because of the legal implications of their future designs.

If you decide to keep the business and have the funds to rigorously defend your design then you now need quality patents.

If you do not have the funds to defend patents then you must proceed in the knowledge that your product will be copied and mass produced if successful. You probably have 12 months to make your money, depending on the complexity of the design.

Now comes the most creative part; sales, marketing, promotion, sponsorship, paperwork, taxes, etc. There are many strategies from Mom and Pop stores through internet, EBay, websites, sales sites and a lot more. I don’t have any advice except do research and develop a strategy.

Conclusions – Protection through patents is the biggest issue and requires a lot of research. You mention the ‘lurking company’ approaching with a lucrative deal to save the day. But, if you do not have quality, robust patents in place then why would they bother. Even if you had patents, if they were not strong then their legal team could take them apart.

The ‘other company’ cannot take patents out on the idea even if you did not protect with a patent for the same reason that your patent is weakened if you patent after putting the lure on the market. Once the idea is ‘out there’ then it cannot be patented. Of course, a slick legal team will always find ways to negate these fine details.

Personally I have been put off bringing a unique lure to market UNLESS it is a fine balance, and cannot be replicated without knowledge of how it works.

Dave

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Vodkaman thank you for your insight. Lawyers drive me nuts.

In the end it's always sour, not enough money.

I would do a deal on a hand shake for $20. Just to have "invented by" on it and not a single lawyer involved. 

I read your part about the effect on future design patents with companies even looking at your idea. Depressing.

Maybe the only advice you could give to someone here is that if you want to make any money, the only sure way is to quickly build and sell as many as possible. The part about really only having 12 months maybe less to make money. I think you're right. No matter what patents you or any company thinks they have someone will make it and sell it.  Being as ready as possible with marketing and production to take advantage of initial vacuum is recommended. This will always be a problem for someone low on funding.

Once the idea is ‘out there’ then it cannot be patented" If someone is here sharing the idea trying to establish that it is theirs first, that may negate a future patent being awarded? That's a shame.

If someone tries to establish enough evidence for these %#*'s to be satisfied, would they ever be satisfied ? Even with a patent that may not be good enough anyway. Would another they take up the task, to make money for themselves of course. Could someone have enough evidence for one %#* to beat another ? Who knows. 

For me and my idea, I don't need a lurking company to save the day. I could never be rich, I'm already happy. I'm a simple man, who needs a simple plan, and I plan to try it out here. With all your experience I hope you'll take one of my lures and test it out. Like I said, my idea is most likely a failure, but I'd like to see someone be able to do it with thiers. So I'm going to try and roll it out that way.

I will try to be as ready as possible with lures ready to sell or trade. But my plan involves makings all the info fully available. A full list of components, where to buy them and build tips with pictures. I want people to be able build these, and it's not that hard. Maybe the only appeal of my personal lures is that your buying one from the guy who invented them, who knows. Any advice anyone could give me, I'll try it. My goal is not to make a lot of money, but have that possiblity for someone else who wants to secure some kind of money making ability to their idea. 

A new recognizable lure design. A lure that a hobbyist here could build but your average person would rather buy.  A design that people here modify, and improve. I would be happy. I don't have a name for my lure. But if the name I choose could stick together with that design for a long time, Wow.

Thanks again. I'm a bit of a vodkaman myself, any brand on ice in a coffee cup will do :)

 

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Sending me a lure would be very expensive, and I would have to pay more to receive the package. I would say that video showing the details of the lure and the swim action would be enough for an evaluation. I would be happy to take a look, but I am not a fisherman. You need an expert fish catcher for a true evaluation, I can only evaluate the design.

Yes, my post is rather a depressing and negative read, and this is possibly validated by a lack of response from the community.

The key is hard work or money, preferably both. Success is rarely about a single lure design, it is about a brand. The reputation of that brand is generated by that single, magic lure, but you will need more lures to generate that brand.

You are also generating a reputation for that brand, so quality and consistency are extremely important. Reputation, recommendation, endorsement, are magic words. Fishing lures are all about confidence, we all know this fact. On the water, we may experiment with a few new ideas, but it always comes back to the lures that work for us, lures that have caught before.

No one has confidence in your new lure, even if they buy the lure does not mean the lure will get a fair crack at earning a place in the inner circle of an anglers psyche, the 'goto' box.

Essentially, the people that you sell to have to become your unwitting sales force. They have to be seen to catch enough fish to generate inquiries, and the lure must look the business too. The lure has to be good enough to sell its self and the rest of the brand family.

A single lure will generate a few sales, a brand of 6 different lures, if just one of the brand is magic, will generate 10x as many sales.

Dave

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Good morning!  I love the idea of introducing a new product.  I don't know jack about patenting or other technicalities.  I'd be happy to be part of the testing process if you see something I've made that you are interested in trading for. 

There's a "poor man's copyright" used in the music industry sometimes where the artist will record tracks on a CD and then mail it to themselves via certified mail.  That way if there is ever a contestation or a claim by someone else that it's theirs the artist has a dated copy that will predate the contestation.  Perhaps if you make a video describing your process and build enough photographic evidence prior to launch you can avoid some of the crud.  If it's an awesome product I'm sure people will make knockoffs, but there's always some extra credibility for the "original."

I'm pretty simple myself when it comes to this stuff, so my ideas might be naïve.  I definitely prefer the handshake method of contract, but that tends to make me a millennial dinosaur.

Dave, I love your ABC's of development.  Simple, straightforward, and practical.  I also like your idea of making a "brand" of lures.  I sometimes refer to that as having a "stable" of designs.

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18 minutes ago, Big Epp said:

I love your ABC's of development.  Simple, straightforward, and practical.  I also like your idea of making a "brand" of lures.  I sometimes refer to that as having a "stable" of designs.

I almost have the 'magic' lure, and have a stable of six originals and standards that can be brought up to production design level in a short time. I need a 3D printer to get to the final prototyping and the next stage of market testing. As for the final stage of production, I will be skipping the gradual build up and going straight to plastic injection having located a local injection operation so that I don't need to go to China.

A manufacturing and production team can be set up quickly, so I can move quickly once the decision is made. BUT, it will take my life savings unless I find an angel investor.

I am not ready to risk my life savings at this time, but will go to final prototype if I can find a printer. I will probably go to visit family in SC for a few months to do the market testing.

Dave

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I have ordered more supplies and they are starting to arrive. I am not sure about shipping yet, I expect to pay around 10 per package to ship within North America. I hope to ship out 1 dozen, then post all details and videos like I've said.

Vodkaman if you'd like to just see the video no problem, but I'd like to send you one. And Big Epp I'd like to send you one, maybe JD mudbug, Hillbilly voodoo. Don't worry about sending anything back me, only if you want to. Im just hoping the people who receive comment here about what they think, and hopefully it's a person with a long comment history that people trust. When I'm closer I'll ask for details, a month or two, because I am going to be ready with a few to trade or sell. I'll have enough supplies to make a couple hundred. For the first dozen if you or anyone else would like a free lure sent to them please clearly post that here in this thread.

The lures will be made from 8mm main wire, 5mm supporting wires, and weight in around 5g. The design is for hooks to be removed and added with a wire loop - brass tube lock. I'll be adding a ewg hook and a 40mm plastic paddle tail. The design can be upsized and slightly more downsized. The blades can be painted but I'll be making gold and silver version.

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Update on my new lure design: 

I have made 32 lures and have them packaged and ready to go. I sent one package with two lures off today to my father, who is a few hundred kilometers away. If all goes well the packaging design will allow me to send two lures and a few extras for a two dollars anywhere in canada or the united states. This is alot cheaper then I estimated. I've been told It actually may be cheaper to deliver anywhere state side as opposed to anywhere in Canada, we'll see. Today's total package weight was 18g.

While building I learned a few things. As I read somewhere, probably here, breaking down everything into steps is important. Making them over and over, one step at a time allowed me to perfect the design. I figured out exact measurements where to cut or bend, and  what angles were needed. I made over a dozen, and left them unfinished in different important stages of completion. While building these wire baits by hand, everything down to the different hand positions needed to hold the pliers, both flat and round, need to be repeated to get a consistant product. 

I made many, only to have to destroy them later. I was trying to save on split rings by attaching a swivel directly to the wire with a closed barrel wrapped loop.  This was nice until i discovered a bad swivel. Eventually things got faster.

Ultimately limited by one component that I can't replace. I've ordered and can't get a exact copy. So I will limit this run to a maximum number of what i estimate now to be around 50 lures. I will number each one as 1 of 25 on a piece of paper included with the packaging, and call this batch 1-A 1-A. 

As stated above I would like to send a few out for free to any lucky people who read and respond this post. I am pretty sure it won't cost you anything to receive the package.. All I ask is that you comment here on what you think about the lure. Please respond here to this post clearly that you would like a with a brand new lure design sent to you for free! I will message you for your details.

I would still like any suggestions anyone has for me to somehow secure this design idea in a homemade patten of sorts, that doesn't involve the parasites. I will send out two packages to mayself an never open them. I have pictures and video of me building the lures, which are apparently gps and timestampped internally in the coding of the pictures. I am not to worried to much because it takes a long time to make each one and I don't think they will be easily copied. It wil be next to impossible to get a machine to bend up this design so I may have discouraged anyone from stealing the design and replicating it on a large scale. But for someone else who comes across this post and has a new lure design I'd like to test out a procedure for them to follow. Is there anything else I could do? 

Also I have been considering a warning in the packaging not to open the packaging and use the lures, to treat them as art mounted on the wall up high, or thrown in the garbage. NOT FOR FISHING.  I'm hoping this will cover me for anyone who takes his eye out or let's his kid eat it and decides to sue me.

 I will most likely be finished the complete batch in a few weeks and should be ready to ship by end of july at the latest.

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Hi Bruce County. I would love to get one of your new 1-A 1-A lure designs. Not sure about all the ins and outs of patents but hoping you succeed in your endeavor. I will PM you my address and wouldn’t mind paying for the lure and postage. Kind Regards…..

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Hi, Bruce County. I would also like to get one of the lures. I have sent you a PM with my address and some additional info.

I agree with Dave's thoughts on a brand of lures. I know a company that make lures primarily for bass. They made an up-sized version of some of their lures for larger species. The labor costs were the same. The materials costs of the upsized lures was slightly higher, but not as much as you think. The price they charge for the upsized version is over twice that of the bass size resulting a higher profit margin item. They get additional sales they otherwise wouldn't get. You can also have similar size lures that fish at different depths. Just think of Mepps - all the spinner sizes from panfish to musky and saltwater plus they have the Deep Runner and Flying C series which are similar in size to their other spinners but run deeper. You should look into making it in different sizes and/or weights. You have the skill to make the lure. You might as well try it with different gauge wires and different size components.

I hope you succeed.

Jim

 

 

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Keep in mind, the data on photos can be easily edited, free software is available to all for the job. Video and photo embedded data is NOT proof.

If you are going to protect your design then do it properly. Starting a patent is not expensive, in fact it is quite cheap. It is defending the patent that costs BIG$$$.

Dave

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I think I will just stay locally and through a web site. I am to old to fight any competition so I will just keep making what I make Musky, Northern or Bass I just like making them. But I will change most of my turning a lure in the summer and paint in the winter with a cap on how many to make and sell. Then enough is all I will make, and fishing them and selling at flea markets, which I enjoy telling new builders how to make their lure ideas come to fact. Like they say a patent is cheap but defending it is where you need more lawyers than they have,$$$$$ 

Wayne

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ravenlures. 

For me it would be bending wire in the winter and painting in the summer. To cold to paint in the winter here. Putting a cap on what you make, numbering and sequencing a series of different ones over time sounds good for a handmade artist type lure. 

Is what your making now a new design? 

If not: if it was a new design you were making and selling, would you sell it differently then you are now ?

What if after seeing a new design, you wanted to trying making some and selling them.

I wouldn't mind people making my design for themselves and give aways. But if they were selling them I would want something. Acknowledgement of the inventor is easy to do, I think. Even by using the original name of the design. If you started selling my design that you saw here would you send me a small percentage. A buck for each one or 3% 4% 5%? Just curious

I try to think of someone else who has created a new lure design and is reading this post. 

Spending money on lawyers and a patent is a great idea. This is a different idea. 

 

 

 

 

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Update:

I have finished making all the lures I could.

I was able to make 56 lures, 28 gold, 28 silver. I packaged them together in 28 packages. I was not able to completely finish packing because I ran out of swimbaits,  more swimbaits are on the way. The first batch 1A-1A-HH-T28 has a horizontal hook clasp, made for EWG hooks. If all goes well the second run will be 1A-1B-VH-(?) With a vertical hook clasp made for jig heads.

I have made up 4 special packages for the people who responded above, they are in the mail. Originally I had wanted to send out more, possibly a dozen. But I have had no one come across this post and ask for a free lure to be sent to them all by themselves. Because I only had to make up packages for 4 people, I made up a total of 12 lures. 8 Special Edition, 4 gold for EWG's,  4 silver "glow in the dark" for jig heads, and 4 unfinished unbent unbeaded lures, 2 in gold, 2 in silver. 1A-SE1-HH-T4, 1A-SE1-VH-T4, 1A-00-00.

I plan to put the 28 packages of 1A-1A-HH-T28 up on ebay.ca. One at a time with a 7 day auction. That will give me time to make up more if need be. I will also trade with anyone interested, and I'll try my best to make them to custom specs. Larger maybe more popular. I know it's hard to price what you make because of all the hours and love you put into it. I have wondered to, what to value this lure at. Because it is a brand new design and a prototype it maybe valued a little different. Like a first run prototype car maybe valued in the millions. Eventually things are scaled up and you can buy one for 20 or 30 thousand dollars. I may start at $9,999.99 each, "Buy Now", and see how it goes. But more likely I will start it at $29.99 for the package. 2 gold and 2 silver, 2 hooks #6 #8 EWG, and 2 random colour swimbaits. I have not done a calculation of how much each one cost me to make and how much time. Every time I seem to get a little faster. 29 maybe to low for me to continue, but a good place to start.

And again for the future reader who has their own new design. I took pictures of the process. I have a video of me at a table making a lure start to finish uncut. I have the receipt of the components printed out. I keep them in my notebook with the original sketches of the lure. There was a process of other lure prototypes that got me here, and I have them saved. They are more basic but you can see the development of the idea. The first package I test sent to my father made it there in 4 days. It was slightly worn and I will have to cover all future packages with tape on that one side to prevent this. I am going to resend a package to myself with the lures inside that I will never open so that it is also a type of time stamped proff of design. They are slightly different from what I'm releasing in the first edition, but the same design and components. All this may or may not be enough for a parasite to recognize as legitimate enough to take on another parasite for free for me. Any other ideas still welcome, I may still have a little time, no one has seen one yet.

The ebay auction is ready and set to start in a few weeks. The YouTube channel is up and ready. I ran a few lures through the river and took videos from above. The ebay will have a video link to YouTube. I also want to make a few other accounts on other fishing forum websites and get some pictures there.

Because I spent time here reading and really appreciate how much knowledge is stored here from years past. Also it doesn't feel like a tech giant website. And it is here where this started. I have named this lure design the  "Underground Spin" . I hope that name sticks with this design and they become synonymous. What do you think?

When the packages start to arrive in a few days, I will finish this post and start a new one in wire baits for me to post videos, pictures and take any questions or comments.

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Well your package has arrived 

I have a plan for them already but will up grade the hook/jig size I hope you don’t mind. I will be testing them on walleye with both soft plastics and minnows as a trailer as different options 

I see this as the most promising application for my location/fishing style. 

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Well I tipped one with a 1/4oz jig head with a twin tail grub. Two casts and I caught a small pike. He beat up the wire pretty good. Unfortunately I lost it to the rocks shortly after

It does work and will try one of the others in an are with more walleye and less pike or maybe a perch lake

presently how it is constructed I see it as more of a panfish lure and see potential for crappie. How I chose to use it I would say it fishes similar to a beetle spin. Unfortunately my area is not a panfish area 

here is proof little pike will eat it though

1D9AE617-D3F4-4636-BE6B-FFC1F4514683.jpeg

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congradulations! frist fish ever caught on a underground spin. i downloaded the picture.

i had it out two days ago, lots of little fish chasing it along the banks of a river, no fish big enough to bite it. i was trying a slow jerky retrive along the bottom.

I know everyone would probably like a larger diameter wire to feel better about targeting larger fish. But you see the tube for the clasp i was using was a great fit for that 8mm wire, doubled over. 

Sorry to hear about the snag in the rocks, and losing the lure. I got in some branches and with a mintue of gentle shaking I managed to get it out. But i had the ewg hook tucked in the back of a soft bait swimtail on that one.

I added the ring at the front, and I regret it sometimes. I had my snap swivel connector slide around the front and under the little wires, and i was trying to prevent that with the ring. Its easy to cut off.

It seems to fall really nice in the water. I wonder if someone will find a way to do some vertical jigging from a boat with it. 

Thank you for taking a intrest and trying it out. Catching a fish and taking a picture is amazing, i ran and showed my wife. When i have version 2A ready I'll have to ask you again. 1.5mm wire is on order.

 I'll be copying over to wire baits forum section. I hope more people will see this and possibly build them.

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I received my package. Thank you for the baits. It reminds me of some little baits I put together for a friend that wanted them for some small river fishing in Missouri. I think the original builder called them Flashy Swimmer or something like that. I posted a pic of that little bait in the gallery but it was built as a double spin with a hand tied jig on it. Beautiful little bait but your is much more intricate. I know how much time I spent on those little Flashy Swimmers for my Buddy and know you put a lot of effort into building these. Lots of wire bending skills in these and they would be very difficult to mass produce. I haven’t fished them yet but plan to and will let you know the outcome. Thanks again for the beautiful baits and will follow up with some on the water experience.

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