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william cohen

Spinner vibration

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I am confused about this subject. On 1/4 oz spinner I have good vibration at any spinner speed. At 3/8 oz at a fast spin i get a slight vibration. At slower speed I do not perceive any vibration. I've tried to balance the spinner by moving the weight more forward. Changed the size of the clevis from 2 to 4. Starting with #3 French Spinner Blade graduated to a to a #5. Changed the size of the beads. The only thing I haven't changed is the wire which is .30. Only wire available at the time. I would say this may be my problem, but I used it on 1/4oz without a problem.

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I would estimate I use 60% French blades when fishing inline spinners. The other 40% is a mix of inline Panther Martin type, Colorado, Indiana, swing, and willow. I have the most luck with the French blades, especially in multi-species waters.

By 3/8 oz spinner, do you mean a spinner with a 3/8 oz weight for a body or the total weight of the spinner is 3/8? If just the spinner body is 3/8 oz, I usually use a #5 French, #3 or 4 clevis, and .035 or .040 wire, mostly .040 due to pike. If the total weight of the spinner is around 3/8 oz as in a 1/4 oz weight body, I usually use a #4 blade, #3 clevis, and .035 wire. 

A #3 French blade would be harder to feel on a spinner with a 3/8 oz weight body. The spinner would weigh near 1/2 oz in total. The bigger the total weight compared to blade, the harder it is to feel in the rod.  I bet there is still vibration. It is probably just hard to feel in the rod tip. If the blade spins easily, I would still try fishing it even if you can't feel it. Let the fish tell you if it works. I have a few spinners with a 1 oz lead body and a number 5 French blade. They cast a mile and I only feel the vibration close to the boat. It could also be your rod or line choice. I like to throw my spinners on a 7' to 7'6" rods. The longer rod helps in feeling the vibration. I usually go with medium power rods on the bass size spinners (#3-5 blades). I mostly use mono. On #5 blade 1/2 oz spinners, I use 12 lb. which is usually my default on the bass size spinners. I use anywhere from 6 to 10 lb on trout spinners (#0-3 blades).  I will use braid when throwing a spinner with a belly weight swimbait hook and plastic trailer in weeds for hook-setting and cutting through the weeds.

Also, if you get your blades from different sources you can check your blade widths. The LPO catalog has a blade size chart in the back or you can check the blades against any Mepps spinners you have. A size 3 from one place could be narrower than another brand's size 3. I have found some French blades that were narrower than a traditional French Aglia-type blade. The narrower French blades act more like a willow or swing blade (less vibration, more rotation and flash). These narrower French blades are more like the Comet-type Mepps blades. 

  https://www.mepps.com/mepps-tactics/article/why-different-blades/421

 

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Most anglers are trying to get their spinners to produce vibration. If it were me, I'd say don't change a thing but you may have a reason for not wanting the vibration. Anyway, if you want to reduce the vibration drop down a blade size or switch to a different blade like an Indiana. French blades have a little weight to them and a size 5 blade rotating around the shaft at high speed is going to cause vibration.  The other thing which was brought up was the wire size and going up in diameter will help. You are using .030" wire and on a bait that size I would try .035".

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Posted (edited)

Mudbug, the 3/8 oz is the body weight. I've made the mistake of not weighing the whole lure.                                                     How does wire size affect blade and lure rotation. and vibration?

Edited by william cohen
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The wire size will affect rotation if the hole in the clevis hole is too tight and doesn't spin freely. If the clevis is too big it also may not spin. The blade may not be able to spin a clevis that is too big or the wire just rattles around in the clevis holes. Another thing to watch out for are stirrup clevises that are spread apart at the ends.  I have some like that. They look like more of an arch shape than a lowercase 'n'. The clevis ends were close to a 45 degree angle to the wire. I had to squeeze the ends together some with pliers to get them closer to 90 degrees to the wire in order for them to work.

If the wire is too thin for the body weight, the wire can flex and dampen vibration. Initially, I made my 1 oz body spinners with .040. The blade spun but I felt almost nothing on the retrieve. When I held the bait by the line tie loop, I could see the wire was bending from the body weight. I switched those to .051 wire which did improve the feel of vibration. Your 3/8 oz body could be making the .030 wire flex. Hold the bait horizontally by the line tie in the side of the vice jaws, slide everything toward the hook like it would be on the the retrieve, and see if the wire sags down.

If you have a digital scale, compare the total weight of your assembled spinners. Compare that #3 blade with the 1/4 oz body to the #5 blade with the 3/8 oz body. That is a big jump in total weight. Maybe try a 5/16 body instead of the 3/8. Look at the weight range for the rod too. It could be the larger spinners are overtaxing your rod.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

To balance the spinner properly there has to be a ratio between the body weight and the weight of the blade, beads, wire etc.  

 Even though this sound like a ridiculous question I don't know the answer. Do you include the weight of the hook? 

Edited by william cohen
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Yes, I like to include everything when I weigh the components on the scale. Sometimes the hook can be a decent percentage of the total weight.  When you get into bigger hooks and ones with big dressings, they can add to significant weight. It's all sort of a balancing act and you have a range that will work. If you look at what you did with your .030 wire spinner, not only was the body upsized to 3/8 oz, the blade was upsized and the presumably the hook was upsized too. The increase in body, blade and hook adds up to a big total weight increase. On a #3blade spinner, I go with a #4 treble if in bass waters and a #6 if I am going for trout. On a #5 blade, I usually go with a #2 treble. I like my #5 blade spinners to weigh between a 1/2 oz and 5/8 oz total. If I am looking to making them run deeper and cast farther, I will go heavier and that does cut down on the vibration felt in the rod. My #5 blade 1 oz body spinners keep a constant bend in a MH or H power rod due to the weight which cuts down on the feel in the rod. They still catch fish. They run deep and if they weren't vibrating they probably wouldn't catch much.

Like azsouth said, you are talking about the feel in the rod. Just because you don't feel it doesn't mean there is no vibration. Rod length, rod action, rod power, blank and guide quality, line and leader all play a factor in what you feel. Once you try a .035 wire, I would try a lighter 5/16 body. That should put in the ball park for a #5 spinner. Can you post a pic of the spinners? There might be something someone can spot by seeing them. You might be looking at the spinner when you the rod set up could be the issue.

 

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I personally fish inline blades the most and I can only speak for my own preference.

size 4 blade should not weigh over .22 ounces (total weight ) or lose the thump of the blade.

size 5 blade should not weigh over .28 ounces (total weight ) or lose the thump.

this is not by any means written in stone but it works for me. 

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That medium light rod might not have enough backbone for that spinner with #5 blade and 3/8 oz body. I throw something like that on a medium rod, MH if pike are around. Are you using a fast action or moderate action rod? I find on the bigger spinners that spinnerbait/crankbait type rod with moderate action helps me feel the spinner more. Maybe switch up the rod action to see if it helps feel the vibration more.

I usually throw inlines on mono unless I am using a weedless swimbait hook inline on braid. I am using 10-12# mono on #5 spinners in bass waters (20# lb braid on the weedless swimbait spinner) . I go up to 14# mono and 30#lb braid when pike are present. 14# mono and 30# braid in weeds will give me a decent chance if I run into a good pike. If I am in pike waters, I will make a leader out of AFW Surflon Micro Supreme 7x7 Camo which is very flexible stainless steel braided wire which you can tie knots with. I will sometimes use a 50 pound flouro leader if the water is clear. I have tried 30# flouro and had bite-offs.

I try to base my spinner weights on what the Mepps weights are.  #5 is 1/2 oz, #4 is 1/3 oz, #3 is 1/4 oz. These weights are also the same as in the Janns chart. Sometimes I am  a bit heavier than theirs but it doesn't seem to affect the feel of the vibration. There is definitely a range of weight a given blade size will work with. Once you get some .035, you can play with the weights and find what you like best.

https://www.jannsnetcraft.com/content/make_fishing_lures.htm

 

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A 5 to 10 lb bass would be a nice battle on a ML rod. We don't really get any bass over 10 lb where I am (10-8 is the NH record, 10-4 is the VT record). The biggest bass I have caught have been 8s. We have many pike over 10, plenty in the teens, and some break 20 lb. I also fish some waters with Musky but they tend to be smaller and far less numerous than the pike. Some waters have walleye with plenty over 5 lb and occasionally some over 10. Longnose gar and bowfin can also hit double digits but I have not hooked into a big one of either of those species. I have caught smallies, largies, pike and walleye on #5 spinners. I can't use ML rods in those waters. Even a Medium rod usually doesn't cut it. Pike and bowfin can be crazy during the fight especially when they get close to the boat. Compare the weight range of the rod if listed to your #5 spinner's weight just to make sure it is not overtaxed.

 

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Here is a pic of some different #5 French blades so you can see the shapes.

From left to right are LPO regal black nickel, Aliexpress, Mepps Aglia, and Mepps Black Fury which has a ‘Comet’ blade. The Aliexpress blade is steel. A magnet sticks to it. The other 3 are brass. I have not tried fishing with the Aliexpress blade yet. The LPO blade is the shortest.  The Comet blade is the narrowest. The Aliexpress, Aglia and Comet are the same length. The Aliexpress and the Aglia are close to the same size, the only difference being the Aliexpress gets wider quicker going away from the hole. They all have curved cupping except the Aliexpress blade which has sharp cupping at the edges and a flat spot in the center. 

I have fished with LPO regal, the Aglia, and the Black Fury/Comet. If I had to rate vibration, Aglia was first, LPO regal second, and Black Fury last. That is also the order of the running depth with Aglia being the shallowest and Black Fury being the deepest. The different shapes have lot to do with it. I also think the pointiness/bluntness of the blade by the hole has an effect too. The Black/Fury Comet is very blunt by hole and seems to spin close to the wire compared to the Aglia and LPO. The LPO regal has the nicest reflective finish, followed by the Aliexpress, Aglia and Black Fury. The Black Fury does more of a strobe as opposed to a flash with the fast spinning dots looking like perch-like stripes. I can’t attest to the durability of the Aliexpress blade. The other 3 have been durable. Those 3 blades I have fished with have all worked. I have caught fish on all of them. They give you different options. The Black Fury/Comet blade is the hardest to feel in the rod tip.

I will be testing the Aliexpress blade as soon as the weather gets better. The lakes are frozen but the rivers and streams are still open.

 

4 french.jpg

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Four different #3.5 willow blades.

Left to right are: LPO fish scale, LPO economy painted, LPO fluted, and Aliexpress on the right. The Aliexpress blade is  steel.

The fish scale and the chart have the same length and width. The fluted and the Aliexpress blade are the same length, both of them being shorter than the 2 on the left. The fluted is the narrowest followed by the fishscale and the chart blade. The Aliexpress is the widest and is almost an 1/8” wider that than the fluted at the midpoint from top to bottom and has the most cup. The fishscale has a curve from the eye to the tip that when sitting flat on a surface there is a gap under the middle. It is the only blade not to sit flat around the edges.

I have not tried the Aliexpress blade yet. I cannot tell the difference in vibration between the other 3 as those don’t produce any noticeable vibration. The fishscale does seem to spin the easiest.  I expect that the Aliexpress blade might actually give off a vibration due to the width in the middle.

4 willows.jpg

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I don't know. Do you mean filing down the edges of the top quarter of the blade to make the end where the hole is more pointy? I haven't tried that.

I am not a vortician, a vortices expert. My guess is that could cause the blade to flare out wider away from the shaft which should give more vibration and probably slow the spin rate.  It could cause the finish to break down faster. On a steel blade, you could end up getting rust. Might be best to try that on a cheap brass blade.

Somewhere in my storage I have the blade from a Mepps Double Cross spinner. The blade is made up two overlapping half blades joined by a rivet that is set into the hole. You can adjust the flare on the blade by spreading apart the halves. The theory was having one spinner blade that would act of as different blades. That spinner never seemed to catch on. My got relegated to storage after the shaft got mangled on a snag.

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Posted (edited)

Yes, that is what I was thinking. I have some steel blades if I could make them vibrate, I would be very happy. I'll deal with the rust later. lol.  

I thought of the top first, but perhaps the bottom more lift?

Edited by william cohen
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If you have spare cheap blades, it doesn't hurt to try anything. I would try narrowing the top first. If I were to try modifying the bottom, I would first try to blunt the blade at the very bottom, flatten that curve a bit. That might make like an Indiana. I think if you narrow sides at the bottom that will probably cut lift. It would be more like a willow. 

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