carolinamike

When I first started out I used the coloring that was broken down, I'm not going to say whose. I ordered one certain color 3 times in 1 year and got a different shade all 3 times, so for the 9 years that I did hand pours, I pretty well always used the pure stuff. It's hard to beat the consistency, especially when you're weighing it out. Jeff, you're right about the machines, they cycle enough that flake fading is never an issue, some of the baits that I have to run at a higher temperature will get some curl to the flake. When I was doing hand pours, I had the flake to fade before but I never had it to actually discolor the plastic. Purple always seemed to be the worst out of any of them and yes Color Tech does their own flake. I talked to Don a while back about giving me a tour and I asked him what he would let me see. He told me he would show me everything but 2 machines and the flake machine was one of them. And by the way I hope everything went well with getting your staples out today. I had a buddy that had that type of surgery, he got over it well, but it was slow going. I look forward to talking with you on the phone when you get to feeling better. If no one answers, leave a message and I will call you back.

Frank, that can't be right because my pigment is not broken down and I've never had a problem with bleeding. I just always assumed and have always been told that the reason it's broken down is to make for easy use. When you use the pigment like I use, you have to do it by weight and not by drops and it's really messy too. But I've also read where people are having problems with flake bleeding. This is something else that I've never had to happen. I've had it to fade because of heat, but I've never had it to bleed the color. Jeff, I've sent you a PM so as not to hijack this post, but I've got to say times two on your comments about David at Bear's Baits. I talked to him yesterday and today too and he told me awhile back that you and he were going to work together. I think this will be a great move for you and him both and I know for a fact that several people have wanted to carry David's molds for awhile now. I think a lot of David and for him to be willing to work with you after turning down so many others says a lot for you too. A lot of the new guys probably don't know it, but there were no standards in hand injection before David came along, he set the standard and almost single-handedly opened up a new market.

Jeff, sorry to hear about your surgery and I hope you do well in recovering. If I was misinformed, it was by Jason, and I was just reading what he put on the forum. Maybe I should have used the word phased out instead of dropped, that was my mistake and I apologize for that. Are you supplying the new coloring to Jason? He stated on his forum that he was phasing out MF coloring and unless he's deleted it from his forum that is the statement that Jason himself printed. So, if I was misinformed it was by the person carrying your product. I apologize, I didn't mean to offend you in any way. Like you, I've also been around this business awhile and there's also other things being said about this subject that aren't being publicized, I said nothing about your company in a negative way or about your product. Matter of fact, I said I hoped he did well with his new coloring and don't get me wrong I don't wish anything bad for Jason's business, I'm not a fan of the way he promotes his business, but I don't wish any bad on him or you or any other company as far as it goes. And if I do talk about a product on the forum, it's from personal experience, in other words, I have actually used the product. Again, I apologize if I offended you in any way, but phasing out, dropping, it just kind of seemed the same to me. But I only said what Jason said.

Lureworks has a couple of good watermelon colorings, watermelon 500 and watermelon 600. Watermelon 600 has a little bit more yellow tint than the watermelon 500. If you put just a smidge of black with watermelon 500 you can match Zoom's dead on. Caney Creek is having to phase out their MF coloring. MF has dropped them. I know the new colors that Jason's putting out aren't broken down quite as much as some of the others. As long as they don't bleed, they should do pretty good, but they're probably not pthalate free. I hope it works out for him.

880 worms 25$

Man, why did they put that M beside the N on the keyboard? One typo and I'm now carolinamike the bass terrorist Sorry about the typo guys, I promise I'm not trying to come up with a new fishing strategy.

I've never heard of anyone having to have liability insurance. As long as you have your tax numbers, filing and paying your excise tax and state taxes if required you should be good to go.

Fishoey, the true pigments are oil based, not exactly sure what type of oil. If the coloring you tested was coloring sold for hand pour then this material has been broken down to make it more user friendly. The true pigments are probably more like your printers ink, they are a thick pasty material. The dyes that I deal with come in two forms, one's a liquid, which most likely is a solvent based material and the others are powders. A real clear chartreuse is a dye. The folks that sell the coloring for hand pours usually break down the pigments and dyes with DIMP, which is another oil based material that incorporates very well with plastisol. The dyes are definitely not food coloring. Almost all food coloring is water based. It has to be an oil based material to incorporate with the plastisol. I imagine the pigments that are used are something close to the same thing they use in oil based paints. As far as any of these being highly toxic, I really don't think it's the case with these materials, but you can call the company and get the data sheets on them. Most all of them have them available just ask and they should be glad to give you the information. The colorings I've always wondered about was the flourescent. They cannot be added to hot plastic like the other pigments and dyes can, but if you add a little bit to the raw plastisol and then add that to the hot plastic it works every time. It's like you're actually making this an oil based material before you use it. This is what I know. I like this thread, I'd like to hear more about the coloring used for plastisol. Maybe someone else will give some more information. Also, true pigments do not bleed. Dyes are high bleeding colors.

I talked to David (Bear) today. Rumor has it that MF will be carrying Bear's molds and injectors. I'd like to wish Jeff and David both good luck in their business venture together.

Cormorant when your plastic gets up to temperature, turn your Presto pot down a little, about half way through turn it down a little more. This problem's also common with the Lee pots but the Lee pots are much much worse. With a little practice, you'll learn at what points you'll have to start adjusting your temperature down. Heat stabilizer will help you too, but learning your equipment will be one of your key hurdles to get over. At one time I used 6 Lee pots and everyone of them operated at different temperature settings. See if this helps some and let us know.

Stricklystripers, does that worm say Striper Sniper on the back of it? If so, it was made here in NC. Let's put it this way, that color looks real familiar to me too.

The color # you're looking for from Spike-It is orange #405. This is a bright flourescent orange. It is an opaque color. Just call Bruce and tell him the color # and he'll fix you up.

I do have a couple of customers that really like the UV. One of them actually sent out baits with UV and without using the same color. I'll try to talk with him and get you some more results. The UV brightener goes a long way. 1 or 2 drops for 4 ounces should do just fine. But if you're a deer hunter don't get this stuff on you anytime around deer season. I got it on my hands and they glowed under a black light for over a week. Even washed my hands with Greased Lightning. It will work using any color, but it really works good on colors like white, bright yellow or other bright colors. If you're going to the Rave or the Disco just rub it on your clothes if you want to glow in a black light.

Guys I've built one of these injectors. You can build one safe for around $800-$1000 bucks. I also bought one of Lurecrafts. I don't know if things have changed now but when I bought mine, they were only sold by Lurecraft. The guy that makes them use to own Lurecraft. On Lurecraft's model, it's made very cheaply with no safety considerations taken in mind. A good example is the air regulator that is actually attached to the lid of the pot. Mine used brass piping to connect it. The regulator is not made to be heated. The price is just really too much for what they offer. There's some other safety issues and also the stirring motor is very cheap too. And I definitely would not use a painting pot. These are not made to be heated. I do know a couple of guys that have made them out of painting pots, the rubber gaskets aren't heat proof. One guy actually ended up making his own mold to make his own gasket out of RTV. The best thing to use is an All-American pressure cooker, these have a metal to metal seal with no gasket and are safe up to around 20 psi. Another thing to keep in mind, if you're going to make your own, where ever you're purchasing your cooker from don't tell them what you're going to do with it. If you're going to use it for anything else besides cooking or canning, the distributors cannot knowingly sell them for any other purpose. Building them is not that hard, but to do it right, it is time consuming. You can buy all your heating elements and heat controls from Thermal Corp. You can get a heavy duty gear motor from Grainger. These are the basic things you'll need to get started. You can also put a heat band on a purchased valve or you can build a heated valve yourself. Also keep in mind you will need some machining work done and someone that really knows what they're doing to weld the aluminum. Add a safety pop off valve (18psi) and you're good to go. I still use one to shoot prototypes for other companies. I've actually used my lid with my stirrer and the bottom part of Lurecrafts. The heat band and heat controls that are on Lurecrafts are of high quality, but after building my own I was very disappointed in the lid that came with the Lurecraft pot. I bought my pot about 6 years ago, I was told that the heating controls had a whole lot more functions but I never received any instructions, even after calling and asking, I'm still 6 years later waiting on the instructions for the heat controls.

Thanks Jeff. I know it took you a lot of time to lay that out, but I didn't see excise tax. This is the direction that I was hoping this thread would take. I know people have different methods for pricing, it's just real informative to see it actually broken down. You're a good man, thanks for your time.

Thanks Frank. And you're right you have to include the sprues. The weight is based on all the plastic produced in one shot. Sprues and all. And that does give you a chance to make clear money off your sprues by remelting. Where in my case, the volume of plastic that is used is so high and I would have to grind my runners to reuse with the machine, the time and the trouble it would take to run them through a grinder plus the D.I.M.P. I would have to use as a lubricant to run the plastic through the grinder does not make regrinds a feasible cost for my production and I think you've figured out by the pricing that my runners are actually sold for less than I have in them, so I really don't recoup anything on sprues myself. Again thanks for mentioning this, this is another way for a new guy to help his profit margin.

Bill, i did answer your question. i dont know why you're so hung up on the half pound, like I said this is an example of a weight out of one of my molds. Its just an example. Like I said if you want to get exact, then weigh a single bait and let us know what the price per piece would be. The half pound weight could possibly be a single large bait or it could be ten baits. I dont make baits to sell one at a time, I think the smallest mold we have here is eighteen cavities. So the one piece you keep talking about really dose'nt pertain to the work I do and my example is based on my work. I thought this would be a good start for you guys to breakdown to help you figure your cost. Without looking back to see what my calculations were (i think it was $1.24), there are salt water swimbaits that weigh this much. For this item I would have to charge $1.24 per piece as a production cost. I also corrected this by telling you I was figuring this per shot and not per piece, so give us an example as if you were selling one of your baits, give us a breakdown formula, and show price per piece. I would like to see people do this with several different sizes and styles of baits, and again it will just be an example. Keep in mind, all of my molds are at least 30 inches tall. The width of the mold would be determined be the size of the baits.

Bill, if you don't mean to get into a pissing contest, don't use the word but after you say that. Instead of a pissing contest, like I said before, this is the way I do it. You've done your calculations and everything, give us some helpful information. Using your plastisol how much would you charge for 1000 pieces? You have a formula now and you seem to have corrected it in every way that you think you should, so using your plastisol and to make a profit show us the calculations of either 1000 baits or either the cost per piece of an hours run. Either way I would like to know what you come up with as your cost per piece. Also on the other forum that you're active on there is a thread about pricing there and you've not even once posted. Again if you just want to argue please find somewhere else besides TU. I posted this as an example if you don't think it's a very good example and apparently you don't, give us better information instead of arguments. It's got to where everytime I post, there's a Caney Creek person sitting waiting to criticize me, if you don't like it don't read it. Frank and Bassboy, your post was one of the reasons for starting this thread, I was wondering how people that use smaller amounts came up with their pricing. I pretty well understand what both you guys said in your post, but I was wondering if you would give us an example and show what the actual cost would be say on a 1000 baits or a one hours run per piece. That's what I started this post for, so that people could get an idea whether or not they're even making money. When I did hand pours, I basically just broke even, never got paid for my time. Again you two guys post was some of the information that I was trying to get to help everyone. Like I said I've seen this subject come up a million times, but no one ever actually tells you how to do it. They just always give you a big list of all the things you'll need to factor in for the price, but you never see how they actually come up with their price or you never actually see their price. Again thanks to both of you guys but I would like to know things like how much do you charge for a teaspoon of salt, and how did you actually come up with that price. Same way with the flake and other components, not just prices, but how you guys actually come up with your formula. Like I said I think this would be the first post I've ever seen where someone would be willing to say how they come up with the actual prices. If you guys are nice enough and generous enough to take your time and to give this information to everyone, I hope that everyone will be nice and courteous enough to you and try not to pick it apart. And I understand that you guys calculations and my calculations won't be the same and that's fine. At least we're giving people that may want to start selling their baits several different formulas. Again, thanks for the very useful posts. You do not have to name whose plastisol you're using, and it would probably be best if you don't. This is not about anyone's plastisol. My main thought is that weight of all components involved in making baits comes down to calculating prices by weight.

Bill, either I've got you real confused or you're wanting to get everybody else confused. The half pound weight is just an example. Different baits and shapes will weigh different amounts so if you make two different baits with a half pound of plastic, you're going to get two different numbers of pieces, so I guess to help you to look at it easier, think of how many baits you can get out of a half pound of plastic, but it doesn't matter, you're calculating the price by weight, so a half pound is a half pound. Like I said this is based on how we price baits. I've got one mold that a half pound of plastic is two hundred pieces. The two hundred pieces is one shot. The reason I said one bait is most of you guys shoot single cavity molds, so if you've got a multi cavity mold that will hold a half pound of plastic, then the calculation should be right. I've seen so many times the question being asked about pricing a bait, and everyone always says all the things you have to consider when pricing, but as far as I know this is the first time anyone has ever posted an actual formula for pricing. It is a little harder for me to break down considering most of the time I use a half pound or more per shot. That's a half pound of plastic sometimes every 50 seconds. Don't mean to confuse anyone just trying to give you some base to start from when pricing your product. One thing I can tell you for sure, the eight years that I did hand pours and kept up 5 stores, I never once was paid for my time. Truthfully in plastic, I think that the only way a person really comes out is to have a product such as a large swim bait or something else that can be sold for a dollar or more a piece. Like I said this is not some kind of pricing bible, but it is the way that a lot of people that use large volumes of plastic calculate their prices.

monte, please tell us how you figure your price per piece. that was one of the main reasons for posting this. This is the way i do it, like i said i would like to see how other people calculate thier prices

Here is an example based on a half lb weight and 250 baits per hour. .5 X $2.15 (price of plastic per lb) = 1.075 1.075 X 250(baits per hour) = 268.75 268.75 + 100.00 = 368.75 368.75 divided by 2000 (baits per day) = .18 per piece. .18 X 10% (Federal excise tax) = .198 per piece (in other words .20 per piece) So the more pieces you can produce in an hour the less cost per piece. This is also why price per lb on plastisol is important. I'd be interested to see how other people calculate their prices. But I've found this formula works best for us. MonteSS please read. I think this answers your question.

You're right, sorry about that. The correct formula is .5 X $2.15 (price of plastic per lb) = 1.075 1.075 X 250(baits per hour) = 268.75 268.75 X 8 + 100.00 = 2250.00 divided by 2000 (baits per day) = 1.13 per piece. 1.13 X 10% (Federal excise tax) = 1.24 per piece Our costs are not comparable to hand pour costs due to the volume we produce in a day. Imagine the cost per piece with plastic that is $6-$8 per lb. Dang SHK, you made it more scary.

I've seen the subject come up several times on this forum and other forums asking how to figure price per bait. This is the formula that I use and it takes into consideration your time, all of your costs, including electricity, and all other expenses involved in making baits. weigh a bait weight of bait X price per lb of plastic(including shipping on plastic) figure up how many baits you can make in an hour. multiply the product of weight of 1 bait X price per lb of plastic by # of baits produced in 1 hour. here's where you take into consideration the electricity, your time, also your flake, coloring and any other components that you use. This figure will vary with everyone so take into consideration what you would have to have for 8 hours of pay for producing the product, electricity for 8 hours. So let's say for example, $100.00 a day. Add the amount figured from the # of baits per hour to the total operating costs ($100.00 per day). Then divide by the total by the # of baits made in a day (8 hr day). This will give you a price per bait. You need to calculate the Federal excise tax based on this price and add to it. (10%). Here is an example based on a half lb weight and 250 baits per hour. .5 X $2.15 (price of plastic per lb) = 1.075 1.075 X 250(baits per hour) = 268.75 268.75 + 100.00 = 368.75 368.75 divided by 2000 (baits per day) = .18 per piece. .18 X 10% (Federal excise tax) = .198 per piece (in other words .20 per piece) So the more pieces you can produce in an hour the less cost per piece. This is also why price per lb on plastisol is important. I'd be interested to see how other people calculate their prices. But I've found this formula works best for us.

I've just posted an updated list of the runners in the classifieds. We'll have pictures up in a little while. If you're interested. Thanks, Mike