hazmail Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 Hi All -Just thought I would add my 10 cents worth here:-I have not heard of anyone else using this process. Although I have not read all threads and am new here, this may have allready been discussed somewhere. When I was making wood lures and selling them I used to put a heap of blanks in a large jar with the sealer and "vacuum" the jar. Warning; the vacuum must be made with a "diaphram" type pump, NOT a vacuum cleaner or similar as the fumes will be drawn through the motor armature and cause ignition of the fumes, with obvious results (Flash back). Removing the air from the jar (lowering the pressure) causes the air pressure in the wodden blanks to also lower, which draws the sealer in below the surface of the blank and giving it an excellant seal. You will need to place a piece of gauze and a wire spring (made from a coat hanger) on top to keep the blanks immersed sealer. When doing this you will see huge amounts of air bubbling out of the blanks, which will be replaced with sealer. All holes around hook hangers, bib slots etc are filled and sealed.After the vacuum treatment (10 min) the blanks are removed and must then be left for a couple of days to air dry -fume off A 12 volt diaphram type air bed pump makes a good one - just reverse the hose so it is sucking instead of blowing. I could marry something like that!!! pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmetto Balsa Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 I had been thinking about something like what you are talking about but hadn't got around to trying to make one. Could you post a couple of photos of how your setup looks? Thanks for any help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted April 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 Hi "Palmetto Balsa" I have not made lures for 5-6 years, so probably discarded the Vacuum setup years ago. BUT, looking at all the new products (primers /finishes) available, I may be tempted to start up again-not to mention, I am getting short of my old lures. As I have no Vacuum to photograph, I have made a diagram for you- Hope you have "Powerpoint" - As you will see it's pretty simple to make, if you have a diaphram pump ! ! If you are doing a lot of lures, use a large pickle jar- If you are doing a couple use a jam jar or something to save on primer, don't have the primer too thick and allow a good drying time. Hope this helps you. Pete After all that I can not upload the file, it as it is too large (max 19-20 kb). Sorry mate , I will get my computer guru onto it, we may be able to Zip it or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodkaman Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 I too was thinking along these lines, when the wood sealer discussion was going on. I was thinking about introducing the vacuum by 'sucking' the air out by mouth, through a plastic pipe. Obviously, this would depend on what the fluid is, health wise. But, it is possible to get a good vacuum without inhaling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rofish Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 Another way of achieving a good penetration of the wood by the sealer is to heat the wood before dipping. Heat makes the air expand, thus a smaller quantity of air stays within the wood. Or, I think it is Palmetto Balsa who said somewhere his balsa lures stay for hours in the sealer, with good results. But the vacuum is a most interesting ideea. Maybe combining the 3 ways of better sealing would bring about the best results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBlaze Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 I like this idea. If it will draw the sealer a little deeper into the pores of the wood, I should make the balsa wood a little more durable and stronger. If you had a good seal on the pickle jar, Would a hand powered vacuum pump work, such as the kind you use for getting the air out of hydraulic brake lines after rebuilding wheel cylinders and or calipers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lure--Prof Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 I guess you could use a vaccuum cleaner if using a sealer with no volatiles... Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clemmy Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 Not sure of the explosion possibility, but couldn-t you also use one of the cheap food vaccum sealers you find at wall-mart? Clemmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palmetto Balsa Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 Went to -Mart today to find the Food Savers and came up empty. They have the Food Saver and containers but I think the acetone I use in the sealer will eat the container. I was looking for the jar sealer they make but Wal-Mart doesn't have it at my location. I looked on eBay and found exactly what I was looking for and the price was right. Here is the photo. I bought one to test out. No it isn't a Swedish pump of any sort. It is a vacuum sealer that will work on wide mouth Mason jars (the lid is made by Food Saver). It is used to reduce the air pressure in the jar and then the metal lid will suction on and you can screw the metal ring on after you remove the piece pictured. This should be the ticket. Now I will need find a Food Saver type device for less than $50 to finish the testing. This should work because the plastic suction device is only on there while the air is being drawn out. This way the vapors from the acetone will only be around the gaskets and seals for a very short amount of time (reducing the likelihood of the acetone vapors eating away at the valves). I will be looking for the suction device but if any of you think of something other than my mouth that will work, let me hear it. Thanks for the Idea hazmail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesehead Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 When the air is coming out of the wood is it not also bringing the sealer out with it? In my opinion pressure would be better much the same as pressure treating wood decking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted April 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 When the air is coming out of the wood is it not also bringing the sealer out with it?In my opinion pressure would be better much the same as pressure treating wood decking. Hi Cheesehead- you are right to a point BUT as soon as you take the vacuum off and the blanks are under the surface of the sealer, the sealer is drawn in to the wood, replacing the lost air (because of the pressure differential) . Sorry but I should have mentioned this in original post. pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted April 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 I like this idea. If it will draw the sealer a little deeper into the pores of the wood, I should make the balsa wood a little more durable and stronger. If you had a good seal on the pickle jar, Would a hand powered vacuum pump work, such as the kind you use for getting the air out of hydraulic brake lines after rebuilding wheel cylinders and or calipers? Yep any sort of pump will do as long as it is not drawing fumes through an electric motor ( armature). The vacuum does not have to be great to see results, in fact if too much you may implode/crush the container. Once the desired vaccuum is reached, a one way valve in the hose line would be handy also, so the vacuum is held. Sorry about not adding all this in original post, (familiarity breeds contempt! !) . Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBlaze Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 Maybe it is bringing the air out and the sealer too, but with the lures submerged in the sealer, I would think that the air having been sucked out of the wood pores before the actual sealing of them would cause the atmospheric pressure to force the sealer deeper into the pores of the wood when you took the negative pressure away. This Hill Billy is going to try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBlaze Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 Hmm, you just reinforced my thoughts while I was writing them. Thanks John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted April 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 Another way of achieving a good penetration of the wood by the sealer is to heat the wood before dipping. Heat makes the air expand, thus a smaller quantity of air stays within the wood. Or, I think it is Palmetto Balsa who said somewhere his balsa lures stay for hours in the sealer, with good results. But the vacuum is a most interesting ideea. Maybe combining the 3 ways of better sealing would bring about the best results. Basically doing the same thing, great idea though-Only difference I can see is, with the vacuum, blanks can be left there for minutes/hours, to remove as much air as possible, but a warmed blank would stop "gassing off" as soon as the temperature equalised-- Great idea though and no expense except for heating-virtually carbon free !! like it.pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted April 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 Hmm, you just reinforced my thoughts while I was writing them. Thanks John Yeah, we are on the same wave now. Just be carefull with electric motors and paint fumes (This goes for exhaust fans, spray booths too). I have been a firefighter for 30 yrs and have seen a few go up around here, including commercial Car paint booths, not pretty. pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 It works well. I have an air matress diaphram pump at home I have used to do this along with remove bubbles from molding material. Easiest way for you DIY guys is make a water aspirator set up and no need to worry about volatiles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rofish Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 Hi Cheesehead- you are right to a point BUT as soon as you take the vacuum off and the blanks are under the surface of the sealer, the sealer is drawn in to the wood, replacing the lost air (because of the pressure differential) . Sorry but I should have mentioned this in original post. pete I think that the sealer is drawn into the wood not only by the difference in pressure, but also by capilarity. Also, the thinner the sealer, the deeper it penetrates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted April 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 I had been thinking about something like what you are talking about but hadn't got around to trying to make one. Could you post a couple of photos of how your setup looks? Thanks for any help. Finally have a drawing that I can load- hope this helps. Sorry about the quality, you may have to blow it up. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBlaze Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 Yeah, we are on the same wave now. Just be carefull with electric motors and paint fumes (This goes for exhaust fans, spray booths too). I have been a firefighter for 30 yrs and have seen a few go up around here, including commercial Car paint booths, not pretty. pete Thanks Hazmail, I will use the hand powered vacuum pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheesehead Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 another vacuum pump style to use would be a ventri style these work off of compressed air. do you have a drawing or pic of the water aspirator Travis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Posted April 17, 2007 Report Share Posted April 17, 2007 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirator Ideally you can hook it to your kitchen sink, outdoor faucet etc... A piece of tubing would connect from the side arm to the vacuum chamber. It doesn't take very long and you need to disconnect from the vacuum chamber before shutting the water off or you may suck water into the jar with the baits and sealing agent. Also minimal risk of the vessel imploding (mason jar) so care needs to be taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted April 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2007 Yeah thanks Travis, I see it now, pretty simple, all we need is some water and a bit of hose, forget the pump- Good lateral thinking here. pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaraal Posted April 18, 2007 Report Share Posted April 18, 2007 Hello Is it possible to do this with linsed oil to get the oil deeper into the wood? I use oil to impregnate my lures to get them durable,but not with the vacuum technique. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hazmail Posted April 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2007 "Jarral" can't see why not, I would warm the oil too, so it is as thin as possible, should penetrate further. Hold it under the oil (see drawing), vacuum through a one way valve in the hose/pipe and leave it for 10 minutes or 10 hours and see how you go. The more air you can get out over time, should give more penetration. When the bubbles stop coming out of the wood, suck it again. You can only try it. Lots of great ideas for vacuuming in this post, as you see from these guys, you don't need an electric pump setup like I made. The oil or primer will only penetrate when the vacuum is removed, then outside air pressure, (I think it is about 7 lbs in your language- 1 Bar in ours) will force the liquid into the wood. Not sure where the limit is with penetration (there must be one), but a good test would be wood stain, vacuumed, against just applied to the same wood type. If only we could get all these heads in one workshop. pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
