Video Measurements Of Lures

[joliepa]

i've been looking through old notes and found a few regulars that have taken the 'mathematical road' to lure design.

 

this intrigues me.  Not that, of course I  think anybody has the computer to fully model a crankbait, but some have thought quite alot about it. (Vodkaman?)

 

One of the very things that have me interested in trying to make cranks is to try to get a firmer handle of lure variation.

 

instead of , XYZ didn't work ,let just try ZYX just for the heck of it,  that crank tends to dive 2 feet.  its not another lets use this orther one that dives 3.  OR perhaps if nothing is happening you systematically alter the frequency/angle from fast and tight to slow and wide.

 

again people are quick to label lures slow/wide,etc.  but an actual number would be so much more scientific about it.

 

you could even try to get a sense of correlation between spots and action.  (place xyz does better at 10hz+ , etc)

 

 

I don't neccesarily need to be able to design for it (thought that would be nice),  If I could Measure it that would be good.

 

Only The boyancy seems easy to test. (although you guys made some great points in the ballast thread ways back, theres a very fine line between a slow sinker and a slow riser).

 

I am wondering if any of you have tried to video analysis of your lures.  Perhaps you could get frequency, and or wobbling angles from each angle?   The only way I can think of getting diving amount is to take some underwater video from a lake or something. 

 

The video is tricky but doable.   But the software would be key.   Actually though there are several video analysis programs out there, has any tried to use them to quantify what their seeing?   I have seen a lot of underwater video clips and it just looks like a wobbling bait.   very hard to make anything of it.

 

 

I realize some people balk at the idea that you can quantify what makes a lure 'successful'.  They prolly have a point.   but if your buying from the box you realize

 

A) the same lures can vary alot

There's not much method to your selection

C) the best you can do is stare down as your retrieve and try to get a sense of whats your lure is doing.  (does it snag half ways from the cast- does it have a strong vibration all the way through the retrieve)

 

step C is semi-scienitfic as it is.   Measurements should just make the process of getting the right action for the right spot a little faster.

 

[joliepa]

Just wanted to add that very informative posts about what causes the wobble and some of the chief design parameters are extensively covered in posts like http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/index.php?/topic/10247-action/  (not too mention some great advice that I am rereading in my last :"wooble" post.

 

my question is more about the tools to measure lure action.  and I haven't found anything in an extensive search of TU.

 

online googling video analysis you find programs like physmo...

[RayburnGuy]

There is no doubt the equipment is available to do the testing your talking about. Things like acoustic signatures can be mapped as well as video being taken of exactly what the lure is doing while it's making those noises. The only question is how much are you willing to spend? Berkley has done a lot of this type of testing, but they aren't talking.

 

One thing that I see as a drawback to this type of testing is that not all fish are going to want the same thing every time it's offered to them. Water conditions, as well as time of year, are also going to play a part as to whether a certain lure is going to be successful under a given set of circumstances. Even things like retrieve speed can play a factor. I would think there were way too many variables to develop a set of rules to build lures by.

 

just my ,

Ben

[joliepa]

physmo is the program for me.  It is freeware and pretty easy to use.  Honestly its Not much more than the ability to break video into individual photos with time stamps.  but there is a few handy utilities, like for example measuring angles.  With a brief rough bathroom clip I was already able to get a frequency on the bait..

 

but still I don't doubt that trying to pin down a lures to a few numbers has limited practicality.

 

On the other hand, I'm punch drunk on the prospect of being able to tweak properties left and right... and a little overwhelmed.   There is the distinct feeling that I could get a wide repertoire of lures and vary this and that, incrementally perhaps rather than going from brand X to brand Y.

 

as a scientist, (I'm a chemist actually), its in my nature to vary the variables of the experiment.  

----

Even though there's no "video measurements" involved, I know many good lure guys stare at their retrieve as they bring it in  and get quite an intuitive grasp on the basic variability of there lures.  I just think that with a few measurements  you could shorten the learning curve of gaining this knowledge.

 

so perhaps in closing, Perhaps video measurements is tool for newby's that happen to be scientifically oriented?

 

and if so, physmo is an easy (and inexpensive) place to start.

[ArdentAngler]

Interesting thread, I'm nonplussed at the variables that effect a lures action. Since joining TU my paradigm has shifted tremendously...my wife thinks I'm a few eggs short of a dozen after she caught me taking pictures of my lures floating in our drinking glasses; Since reading Vodkamans post on static placement...or whatever the term is??? for how a lure sits on the water, I've been testing my best lures and taking notes. The findings are remarkable as I was naïve to how my lures actually sat and swam.

 

I thought of starting a thread to discuss and catalog the vast commercial lures properties...i.e. what makes these lures tick. Though I wouldn't know how or where to start, this venture would be extensive and canonical in the scientific sense. Though if you are able to achieve your prospect of digitally breaking down your lures it would be highly beneficial to understanding what makes said lure wobble or flick. Mind you the data you speak of seems way over my head and would need to be written in a more laconic prose.; the old saw "explain it to me as if you were speaking to a child" comes to mind.

[mark poulson]

physmo is the program for me.  It is freeware and pretty easy to use.  Honestly its Not much more than the ability to break video into individual photos with time stamps.  but there is a few handy utilities, like for example measuring angles.  With a brief rough bathroom clip I was already able to get a frequency on the bait..

 

but still I don't doubt that trying to pin down a lures to a few numbers has limited practicality.

 

On the other hand, I'm punch drunk on the prospect of being able to tweak properties left and right... and a little overwhelmed.   There is the distinct feeling that I could get a wide repertoire of lures and vary this and that, incrementally perhaps rather than going from brand X to brand Y.

 

as a scientist, (I'm a chemist actually), its in my nature to vary the variables of the experiment.  

----

Even though there's no "video measurements" involved, I know many good lure guys stare at their retrieve as they bring it in  and get quite an intuitive grasp on the basic variability of there lures.  I just think that with a few measurements  you could shorten the learning curve of gaining this knowledge.

 

so perhaps in closing, Perhaps video measurements is tool for newby's that happen to be scientifically oriented?

 

and if so, physmo is an easy (and inexpensive) place to start.

 

joliepa,

What you're talking about sounds like fun, for you guys who enjoy really getting into the details of lure actions on a very fine level.  I look forward to hearing what you find.

[joliepa]

Interesting thread, I'm nonplussed at the variables that effect a lures action. Since joining TU my paradigm has shifted tremendously...my wife thinks I'm a few eggs short of a dozen after she caught me taking pictures of my lures floating in our drinking glasses; Since reading Vodkamans post on static placement...or whatever the term is??? for how a lure sits on the water, I've been testing my best lures and taking notes. The findings are remarkable as I was naïve to how my lures actually sat and swam.

 

I thought of starting a thread to discuss and catalog the vast commercial lures properties...i.e. what makes these lures tick. Though I wouldn't know how or where to start, this venture would be extensive and canonical in the scientific sense. Though if you are able to achieve your prospect of digitally breaking down your lures it would be highly beneficial to understanding what makes said lure wobble or flick. Mind you the data you speak of seems way over my head and would need to be written in a more laconic prose.; the old saw "explain it to me as if you were speaking to a child" comes to mind.

 

I am having Very similar thoughts.  Last night, I got the best measurement yet of my goto lures action.   But first, terminology.   Lets call wobble the rotation of a lure Left and right.   This movement is cyclical.  i.e if you plot the angle of the lure from the top of the photo it makes the following graph.

 

 

This motion occurs every 1/3 second.   You can describe as frequency, 3 Hz.

 

This is the first of five movements that I can imagine measuring and that describe important properties of a crankbait.   The five are:

 

Wobble frequency.  (which I just measured)

Roll frequency.  (the amount of times the lure rolls or rotates around the eye)

Minimum Wobble speed.  (the minimum speed at which the lure breaks into its characteristic wobble)

Maximum diving depth.   (the depth of the lure casted)

Diving angle.   (the angle made from the lure as lands to the water to its maximum diving depth)

 

to be honest, I prolly measured the LEAST important characterstic of the lures action, given walleye behavior.   But only wobble and minimum wobble can be measured with a camera up in the air.   and the two diving measurements cannot be done in a bathroom at all.   Instead a waterproof camera could capture video of a retrieved plug.

 

anyways I intend to do a more complete set of measurements in the next few days.  and get (at least) wobble and minimum wobble on 3-4 of my lures.   I will probably also do archimedes dunk testing on them as well to evaluate where they stand as suspendors, floaters, etc.  

Edited October 31, 2013 by joliepa

[Nathan]

Like Ben said.. Berkley did a ton of work like this.They said they had pinpointed what action made Bass strike the most and incorporated this action into their Frenzy crankbaits... Do they still make this crankbaits?...I don't think they ever really took off...But just the same..I find this kind of stuff very interesting.

Dr.Jones (Berkleys head researcher) Wrote a book several years ago called "Knowing Bass".It is a must read for any lure maker.He doesn't 't give away any Berkley secrets but points you in the right direction...Nathan

[mark poulson]

joliepa,

If I were you, and were able to measure lure actions like you can, I'd take one of my Berkley Frenzy cranks and measure it's action, and then try and duplicate that.  If Berkley has already done the testing for you, why not take advantage of it.

 

On a side note, I'll offer you another suggestion.  Of course, free advice is usually worth just what you pay for it, but here goes.  If you built a small test tank, shaped like a long trough, and added a recirculating pump, you could probably suspend your lures in the moving water and take the kind of video you need for analyzing their actions.  GoPro makes waterproof video cameras now that are "affordable", too.

I'm really good at spending other people's time and money!  Hahaha

[joliepa]

I appreciate the fact that berkley's done alot of testing to build the perfect crankbait.   But if there was any lure I would copy it wouldn't be a berkley.

 

I've been fishing minnow plugs for about 5 years.   Before then I didn't know a spinner from a suspendor.   I'm had been fishing at the tailwaters of a dam and drowning worms with little success when another guy took some pity on me.

 

he gave me a few lures and offered a few 'suggestions'.  In time he has become a good friend and has spilled his beans of many of his techniques and spots.    It was him that I was talking about when I said that he had a lure that caught 10 big walleyes in 12 casts while I was skunked 30 feet away.

 

he isn't particularly picky about lures but has an uncanny knack of making what he has work.   He buys these big assortements whenever some lure gets to the clarence bin.   He isn't married so he has discretionay money to spend when the deal is good.

 

anyways We have a favorite lure.  It is called smithwick suspending rattling rogue  and there is something about the feel of it that I've learned to associate as a good action.  (this is the lure I was studying in the bathroom).   as an opposite, the Husky jerk feels (to me) slow, sluggish and unresponsive it is at the bottom of my list of suspending lures to try.  Since it is rarely used, it is rarely lost to underwater crevices and always there in my box waiting for me to become desperate enough to use it.  

 

I'm not saying I've never caught a fish with it, but generally its qualities I think are something I'd like to avoid.  Officially I think rapala dubs the husky jerk as a "subtle action", in my lingo it just doesn't ring the bell loud enough to call many walleyes.  Its also got a really poor cast and for us shore guys, a small cast is a definite limitation.   A lesser lure that can really cast far, can outfish a better lure.

---

 

I'm not sure What action or technique really produces the bass, but with walleye it seems that on the pause, as you tug and bring it back to a wobbling motion that they attack just as it speeds up. I can only think that one of the bigger triggers is a panic dart from the minnow.  sometimes the exagerated jerk throw the lure to the side so much they can dramatically turn the lure.   There's times when the fish really like that.

 

With that in mind, one of the most important measurement might be the minimum wobbling speed.

 

I can do that testing but I need a bit better of a bathtub setup. 

----

 

appreciate the advice of a waterproof video camera.   That sounds like what I'd like.   the $$$ is going to take a little while.   I've used a lot of money to get set up.  gotta have the money to start guessing or the science is useless.   Big learning curves on making them as well, but I really appreciate HOW much advice there really is on here.   I've dug deep into the archives and amazed how much there is.   There's even a few scientific threads that really delve into the why's and how's of lure design.

 

----

Lastly Wow.  What an interesting sounding book.  unfortunately, its a bit out of reach, the least inexpensive copy through amazon is 96$. 

[Nathan]

Wow...The book must be out of print or something for it to go up that much..I bought it when it first came out for under 20.00...Nathan

[joliepa]

it did go out of print.  but on the other hand, It looked absolutely novel in its approach.

 

i've read /watched a lot of fishing instruction.  I don't find much of it instructional.

then again I am not the typical boat angler.  Very little is written comprehensively covering walleye fishing from shore or wading.

 

The technique I can work out on my own waterway, its a way of categorizing similar lures as an add to finding the right lure for the right spot.

 

 

Even with the stuff that my friend and I have shared its still not entirely clear how he comes up with the right lure for the spot.  He has an excellent intuitive sense about what feels right,  a knack I don't have.  Instead in the past my approach was to just fish my one goto lure in nearly every condition and either doggedly persist in the same place or move on.

 

I'd like another approach and that is part of why I'm here... 

[clemmy]

There's a few other sources out there for some of this info

Books (and now app) precision trolling and precision casting by Holt and Romanack.

Frank Prokop Aussie book Lure Encyclopedia

All have diving depth info.

Theres a Japanese book and dvd out there as well that have info on actions of existing lures...

[joliepa]

More measurements are done and analzyed.  This time I set up on a tripod to try to avoid any kind of movement of the camera influencing the measurements.  

 

Fishing for walleyes I kind of had the thought that I would look at some move-pause behavior.   Like SO many things though, a lot of times what you think would work doesn't and you need to reassess what is practical.

 

In truth, as the lure responds to a brief gentle tug, its behavior is generally pretty erratic and it generally arcs around.  But there's simply no repeatable math to describe that arc.  sometimes It isn't even an arc.

---

so looking at the actual footage what is reasonalbe and what isn't.

 

well First, it seems to me that Frequency, the changing angle of the lure to the line seems constant or nearly constant.  On the other hand,  the maximum amount of angle the lure makes is highly depenedant on speed.  (or current which doesn't apply in a bathtub). 

 

I think there's lure to lure differences on maximum angle, and much of that has to do with weight distribution.   But its nothing thats going to be easy to pin to a number.

 

Another VERY interesting number surfaced when I attempted to pin down Where the lure was actually rotating from.  if you look at the pattern of plots of the front of the lure,  you see a cyclical pattern.  Next look at the pattern of plots at the rear of the lure.   

 

you can use trigonometry to find the pattern of any specific spot on the lure, as it moves.   the axis of rotation should be where the minimal amount of cyclical movement is.   Is the lure is going exactly Strait...then there no cyclical movment at the axis of rotation and the movement is linear. 

If on the other hand, the axis of rotation is moving back and forth with a strait pull, than that is The HUNTING movement, yes?

 

and This is where it gets very interesting.  Drumroll Please.... 

 

My goto LURE  an out of the box rattling rogue HAS a slight hunting movement.   All the old timers here (and novices that study lots of pages of older posts) that hunting is both a very sought characteristic and almost never present in a commercial lure.  too close to Instable behavior.

 

 

well.   perhaps NOT as uncommon as you'd think if you study the bait hard enough.

 

mind you, I think on here, when people talk of hunting cranks they mean big easy too see movements.  but I'm only pondering outloud.   I've heard about hunting cranks but never saw one.  and if you watch thing in the video you'd be pretty unsure it exists either.

 

On the other hand,  I'm sure of my math.   Attached is a plot of 8frames and there's no way you can place any one point on the lure without showing a small cyclical motion against a line of linear travel.

 

PS.  being all new to "Hunting motion" topic.  please do correct me if I'm jumping to the wrong conclusion.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2013 by joliepa

[joliepa]

so more comparisons last night and I need to add another very relevant variable.

Speed. Comparing the rogue with a husky jerk its dramatic. the husky jerk goes nearly twice as fast.

this is a problematic variable. what really is changing is the lures friction through the water.

on the other hand, speed is also highly variable on the cranking force your exerting on the bait. with less of a night and day difference, I might not even know by video measurements whether small differences in speed was due to how a pulled it through the water.

but from the vantage point of a fish, its huge. The big thumping action of the rogue is at least partially due to the fact that its got a lot of alot of friction and that friction translated in movement would make a big difference on how the lures vibration would be felt in the fishes lateral line.

Even just its average speed could be very significant in the bite. does the quick sudden darting of bait a little ways away catch the fishes attention? or does the fish get less interested in a bait that seems too energetic? if the fish is following the lure does a quicker dart (brought back in the paused style I use so much), prompt the feeding response or does it end the whole thing.

if I see a fish following my lure- do I stop, speed up or change the lures direction. I've had all three work, and in just as many other situations, it fails.

the point here is to understand each lure by its video footage so I can get a variety. But it will be a difficult to be certain of this important characteristic. if I had enough money for fancy tools, I suppose one could imagine a rig set up that would pull line at a known and constant force... for now I will just have to try pull hard and the same with different lures and see the results.

but this exercise is not really as much about good science as it might appear. I'm only using caveman tools to understand lure motion. Half this board is prolly getting a lot more insight into similar test swims. But looking down on the wobbling lure, my eyes have prolly finding describable, significant differences.

on the other hand, this is going VERY slow. One computer has the software, another has excel. and the all important angles have to be handwritten from the software to excel.

I expect to analyze at least 2 other lures next week.

Pokey as i am, I could still MAKE a lure faster than I can analyze a few seconds worth of video. LOL

[littleriver]

@joliepa

 

Here is some footage I took a couple years ago. I was comparing the action of a Modern KVD 1.5 to a Vintage Bagley B3. I was looking for hunting action in the two baits. The old Bagley came closest with it's deadstick action. Not sure this is the type of footage your interested in but a fun view anyway. 

 

Edited November 8, 2013 by littleriver

[joliepa]

I Keep chipping away at the footage, and looking for more patterns.

What I'm noticing is all the noise in the data. Something I consider a variable, like frequency, Have ALOT of run to run variation.

It makes it a little hard to pin down the stats on these lures, espacially as I do lure to lure comparisons.

---

There still are some easy correlations. for example, the maximum wobbling angle is correlated to frequency. (more frequency = less angle). and the wobbling angle is correlated to speed. (more speed=more angle).

---

Another huge variable is Drag. Drag doesn't PER SE correlate to either angle or frequency. But more drag + a faster, bigger wobble) correlates to rhythmic path in the water.

Calling this movement 'Hunting' though I think makes more of the movement than it is. The rythmic path back is just an indicator that the momentum of the lure is LESS than friction. .. I'll dub it (then), prehunting. since it is the beginnings of the highly sought after hunting movement. so that opens another bunch of correlations.

Less mass, More drag and more wobbling = more prehunting.

more friction, big wobbles and lots of prehunting = a bait that doesn't respond well to a twitch or jerk.

on the other hand, in bigger currents you can get away with more of these movements while still keeping your retrieval speed low.

---

so in short, without better tools, a real tank, a consistant way of pulling a lure, a way of measuring the resistance to flow...

we have some lots of variability and 3 major measurements.

Change of Angle during a cycle, Timing of the cycle (frequency), and the speed of the lure.

all of which can be dramatically altered by the force pulling the lure. BUT if you're just striving to make lure to lure comparisons. You should just pull a bunch of lures in a bathtub or pool and start recording.

A) have enough water to not touch the bottom (obviously much easier in a pool than a bathtub)

Keep your pull as consistant as possible. Do NOT go by lure speed, try to pull hard and use the fact that a lure with less drag will go faster.

C) pull strait and keep it tuned. that way you don't have trigonometric distortions in your picture. along those lines keep your lure motion perpendicular to the camera. Measure in the center.

D) and last. There are many clever and useful ways to measure variability. But with these kinds of rough measurements, a simple average measurement is sufficient. Do things multiple times, so you have an average. Remember the statistical truth, a number measured repeatably becomes more accurately.

---

as for the video littleriver. Step2 is to get the software and start making measurements. I get so lost trying to make accurate statements from underwater video. A few of you just get the time-tested Knack to look down and say. wow what a wide(narrow) wobble. but with it broken down frame my frame some simple math and it seems clearer to me.

espacially if you've gotten a good typical stable wobble. I think not all the wobbles I am describing are stable.

In time I hope to have an answer for a much better test tank. That though is a topic for another thread (and more money )

Edited November 13, 2013 by joliepa

[mark poulson]

Joliepa,

Are you related to Vodkaman?  Hahaha

[joliepa]

No... but I wished he'd come back. I've totally pored over ALL his posts.

I think I'm walking in some similar footsteps, for sure.

[ArdentAngler]

I was thinking he IS Vodkaman!

 

The word trigonometry was used and now I'm quite scared...there won't be a test on this will there?

[joliepa]

you guys REALLY don't know how much you flatter me.

I'm very much a newby builder. on the other hand, I love the methodical approach to lures. and can figure out some trigonometry, from time to time.

SO...If you want the test, PM! ha!

---

Vodkaman never talked about video analysis of his lures. but with all the insights he had, I'm still thinking he might have tried it ( really don't see how he could get basic Measurement any other way). If any one has any good way to get ahold of him. I'd love to hear him chime in. my methodology admittedly (hows THAT for a highclass word?) could use an upgrade- a bathtub is REALLY not the optimal place to get video of a lures swim. I'm getting less than a quarter second of wobbling.

Anyways, Vodkamen talk about a detailed study between frequency and lure shape (and other variables I suppose) that would be very interesting. I wish he'd put more of that online. someone chimed on that thread saying that that measurement should be on the box. this is EXACTLY my line of thought.

(this is my absolute favorite post on the whole forum-- http://www.tackleunderground.com/community/index.php?/topic/9007-mathematical-modeling-and-pure-science-of-lure-design )

right now, I haven't gotten my own builds ready for video analysis, but I'm very close on the first couple. I will continue to post when I do.

[mark poulson]

I was thinking he IS Vodkaman!

 

The word trigonometry was used and now I'm quite scared...there won't be a test on this will there?

 

Hahaha  

[hazmail]

Jo---Dave is having some large computer issues (in Indonesia !!)----stand by, he WILL be back.

Pete