re-tempering hook eyes

[mark poulson]

I heat my jig hook eyes so I can open them without breaking to insert a chatter blade.

Is there a way I can re-temper them so they won't reopen as easily?

[cadman]

Mark,

    The way I was always taught to harden steel was to get the item (hook in this case) red hot. Then, quench (dip) in oil or water. Oil is a better choice in my opinion. However, this isn't as easy as it looks. There's hardening and tempering. In order to get the correct hardness you should really know what kind of steel you have. Because if you harden it too much it will get brittle and crack. There's a lot of science to this and I'm not an expert.  The other question is what do you do to the attached blade as you try to harden the hook? I would like to see some more responses to this as I would like to learn as well.

[mark poulson]

Ted, the Mustad jig hooks I'm using are soft after I heat the hook eye red hot.  They stay soft and don't break, like they did before I heated them.  I was hoping to find a way to re-temper them so they would still be soft enough to bend, but no longer be brittle when re-bent, like the originals.

[Dink Master]

Make your own wire forms, that are way better then the open hook eye method.

Get some Do-it Poison Tail Swing Wire Forms (STW155) and don't look back.

https://www.tacklewarehouse.com/Do-it_Poison_Tail_Swing_Wire_Form_100pk/descpage-DIOTSW.html

Use the wire forms with your favorite flipping or spinnerbait hook.

[jigmeister]

I make my blade baits using a Do-It Arky style jig mold and don't need to heat hooks or use connecting links . 

I used a TriSquare to mark a line at a 45 degree angle down from the top of one side of the open mold (to one side of the sprue hole ) to the center of the round recess in the cavity where the eye of the jig hook sits in the mold halve  . I then use this mark for reference to make a line across both mold halves with the mold closed . Now using a hacksaw with the mold closed and positioned at a 45 deg angle in a vice I sawed along the lines I marked into the mold just down to the middle of where the hook eye sits . The mold is soft and cuts very easy so go slow . (The mold still pours arky jigs just fine with this mod ) 

OK now the blade part . ( I think I read this tip on this forum about using a center punch and tapping it into a hook eye lightly to open a gap the eye just enough for the blade to slip thru .  ) Now you can place the jighook with blade attached into the mold and place the blade in the slot you cut and close up . The lead pours up to and covers the gap so the blade can't slip out so you don't need to closed the gap in the eye you create The only thing really different is painting the head WITH the blade attached but it's do-able . I have never had a hook eye fail or break as a result of stretching it open a tiny bit .

I was apprehensive at first about sawing into a perfectly good mold but it is still working perfectly years later .   I tried to be detailed enough for people to visualize this mod but a picture would have been easier . If anyone is interested I'll dig my camera out and post pictures 

[jigmeister]

8 hours ago, Dink Master said:

Make your own wire forms, that are way better then the open hook eye method.

Get some Do-it Poison Tail Swing Wire Forms (STW155) and don't look back.

https://www.tacklewarehouse.com/Do-it_Poison_Tail_Swing_Wire_Form_100pk/descpage-DIOTSW.html

Use the wire forms with your favorite flipping or spinnerbait hook.

OR use these Connector Links - Barlow's Tackle (barlowstackle.com)

[Dink Master]

1 hour ago, jigmeister said:

OR use these Connector Links - Barlow's Tackle (barlowstackle.com)

I used Connector Links for years. Inconsistent quality, too soft and have a larger diameter/gauge wire

then the Do-it Poison Tail Swing Wire Forms. The Poison Tail Swing Wire Forms are stronger and have a

smaller diameter. Smaller wire equals better/freer blade movement. Open eyed Hooks have a larger diameter

then the Connector Links. The choice is yours. The Poison Tail Swing Wire Forms are a close match to the 

Jack Hammer wire form.

[jigmeister]

I haven't used the links myself though others like them for this purpose .

 pretty much every Hollow bodied frog lure has one attached to the double hook .  I would tend to think if the #65 braid that anglers are throwing frogs on isn't opening the links wrestling big fish out of weeds they should be fine for other applications .

Ford Vs Chevy debate ?

[mark poulson]

17 hours ago, jigmeister said:

I make my blade baits using a Do-It Arky style jig mold and don't need to heat hooks or use connecting links . 

I used a TriSquare to mark a line at a 45 degree angle down from the top of one side of the open mold (to one side of the sprue hole ) to the center of the round recess in the cavity where the eye of the jig hook sits in the mold halve  . I then use this mark for reference to make a line across both mold halves with the mold closed . Now using a hacksaw with the mold closed and positioned at a 45 deg angle in a vice I sawed along the lines I marked into the mold just down to the middle of where the hook eye sits . The mold is soft and cuts very easy so go slow . (The mold still pours arky jigs just fine with this mod ) 

OK now the blade part . ( I think I read this tip on this forum about using a center punch and tapping it into a hook eye lightly to open a gap the eye just enough for the blade to slip thru .  ) Now you can place the jighook with blade attached into the mold and place the blade in the slot you cut and close up . The lead pours up to and covers the gap so the blade can't slip out so you don't need to closed the gap in the eye you create The only thing really different is painting the head WITH the blade attached but it's do-able . I have never had a hook eye fail or break as a result of stretching it open a tiny bit .

I was apprehensive at first about sawing into a perfectly good mold but it is still working perfectly years later .   I tried to be detailed enough for people to visualize this mod but a picture would have been easier . If anyone is interested I'll dig my camera out and post pictures 

I used to open the hook eyes with an awl, but the newer Mustad jig hooks are too hard and brittle. Only the 5/0 will open without breaking.

[mark poulson]

On 9/4/2023 at 12:10 PM, Dink Master said:

Make your own wire forms, that are way better then the open hook eye method.

Get some Do-it Poison Tail Swing Wire Forms (STW155) and don't look back.

https://www.tacklewarehouse.com/Do-it_Poison_Tail_Swing_Wire_Form_100pk/descpage-DIOTSW.html

Use the wire forms with your favorite flipping or spinnerbait hook.

Thanks Dink.  I just ordered the smaller wire.  I have a shlod of left over trailer hooks, since I can't use them here on the Delta.

[21xdc]

I use end nippers and never break a hook, Unless they are forged.... So I don't use those.

 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-7-in-End-Nipper-Cutting-Pliers-48060/203287749#overlay

 

[bassjiggin1955]

I started making these blade jig body's in 3/8 oz & 1/2 oz. several years ago. Best money I ever spent on a set of aluminum molds. 

[Jig Man]

Mike’s idea seems like it would give you more control and finessing it open.

[CNC Molds N Stuff]

Tempering is really a third step in "heat treating."

Get up to the correct temperature.  

Quench.  

Temper.  

There can be more to it, but is the sexy and glamorous part.  

Tempering is the process of reheating to a lower temperature to soften slightly for "toughness." In your case you are softening completely or normalizing the eye of the hook.

After the quench a quenchable steel is theoretically as hard as it can be, but brittle.  It can shatter.  

One of the things where people sometimes get into trouble is that different steel alloys have different best practices for heat treating.  Any alloy under about .4% carbon is going to be a crap shoot.  

There are also some metals including some steel alloys that will work harden.  That is, if you bend them, beat on them, or press them they will get harder.  It makes me wonder when I see for example hooks with flat sides if work hardening isn't part of their process.  

I do not think that hook making is quite the mysterious arcane alchemy that some people would like you to believe, but knowing exactly how to process a particular hook maker's hook wire is probably going to take some experimentation.  

You could call or email and ask, but I don't think you would get a very helpful response. Years ago when TJ Stallings with TTI Blakemore (daiichi, tru turn, etc) was still alive he told me the company who made their hooks wouldn't allow them in the production area of the facility period.  Not even a glimpse.  

I am absolutely not an expert or even a knowledgeable apprentice at heat treating. I just learned a lot by watching the blacksmith channels on YouTube for fun.

[CNC Molds N Stuff]

Correction.  Annealing.  Not normalizing.  

[curt k]

Rapid heat and quench can be easy or difficult depending on what a guy is working with . As a metal cools from the glowing state it goes though many colors changes before it cools right down to the final color which is typically black . A guy needs to know what is the best color to quench on because each color will give a different hardness  . It isn't easy with thin metals since they cool down too fast and your going to need fast hands and really good eyes to follow the color changes .

The proper way with something like that is to use a furnace , hold them at high heat for a period of time then quickly cool them down . Except my guess is there won't be enough carbon left to get a proper heat treat for a second time

[CNC Molds N Stuff]

6 hours ago, curt k said:

Rapid heat and quench can be easy or difficult depending on what a guy is working with . As a metal cools from the glowing state it goes though many colors changes before it cools right down to the final color which is typically black . A guy needs to know what is the best color to quench on because each color will give a different hardness  . It isn't easy with thin metals since they cool down too fast and your going to need fast hands and really good eyes to follow the color changes .

The proper way with something like that is to use a furnace , hold them at high heat for a period of time then quickly cool them down . Except my guess is there won't be enough carbon left to get a proper heat treat for a second time

I said I wasn't an expert, but I'm not an ignoramus either.  LOL.  Yep.  Sort of, except that its based on temperature.  Color is a "rule of thumb," not a rule.  You can guess about the temperature of the metal (with steels) based on color "glow" for quench temperature, and you can guess the temperature of tempering based on oxidation color if you have first cleaned the metal to bright after quenching.  You can absolutely heat treat with a furnace, but in an industrial setting a programmable heat treat oven is the standard. 

Yes, I know a furnace can be electric, gas, coal, coke, or charcoal. I have an electric pottery kiln on the shop floor right now from which I plan to make a heat treat oven so I can leave the gas forge on the shelf.  I'll just add a programmable controller when I get to it.  

Some alloys like a different target range for quenching than others, but generally start with just slightly hotter than non magnetic.  Literally, get it hot and touch it with a magnet.  Then a little hotter until it stops being so magnetic.  Then just a little more, but not a lot.  This is a "rule of thumb," not a rule.  The rule is know what you are working with and look it up.  

And of course as I already mentioned many steels (and aluminum and copper alloys too) will work harden which based on the visible evidence clearly shown on some hooks may be part of the process.  

It also sounds like or at least reads like you are confusing or combining the processes.  Quenching makes it hard.  There may be a best temperature and media for quenching a particular alloy to make it hard, but generally you only heat to ONE temperature range (not over and let it cool either) that is ideal for a particular alloy.  This process generally for most heat treatable steels I am familiar with does not allow you to target hardness.  It just makes it makes it hard.  If you did a bad job it may not be ideally hard, but generally it just makes it hard. 

Tempering is how you control the hardness.  Its another process in heat treating.  You heat it up again to soften it to the hardness you want.  Springs, knives, and machine tools are tempered AFTER they are hardened.  And old gunsmith trick for tempering springs made from plain high carbon spring steel is to drop them in a pot of molten lead.  I've never done it, but I've seen it done.  It can be done in a furnace, forge, oven or in a campfire, and it has been.  Most home shop guys use a toaster oven.  I use the same toaster I use for powder coating for tempering myself.  

You can muddy the waters with all kind of stuff, but hooks are cheap.  Just try it.  If it doesn't get hard hit it with a hammer or squeeze it in a press.  

If you want to get technical and drive yourself crazy there are whole volumes on heat treating.  You can read book after book on the process.  To begin with the section in the Machinery's Handbook on heat treating is a good start.  I would suggest people start with an older one.  The section on heat treating is quite a bit bigger in my 2020 31st edition than it is in my 1942 11th edition.  If you KNOW what alloy you are working with you can download Heat Treaters Guide Companion on your cell phone and look up known industrial recipes.  

For something as small as a fish hook the quench can be done just fine with a hand held torch, and vegetable oil or even motor oil.  (preheat the oil) The big issue in my opinion is hardening the eye without soften the rest of the hook.  Personally unless I was making the spring from raw known carbon spring steel stock I'd try work hardening it first.  Anyway, don't over complicate it.  Just try it.  It it doesn't work modify what you are trying.  You are after all working with mystery steel.  Hooks are relatively cheap.  Try it and if it works write it down.  Remember it may only work with that make and model of hook.  Another hook or another manufacturer may (and probably does) use a different steel.  
 

Edited September 16 by CNC Molds N Stuff

[CNC Molds N Stuff]

It occurs to me for the OPs purpose there may be a better solution.  Instead of annealing the hook eye to make it dead soft try heating it a little less to make it "less hard", but not dead soft.  

 

 

[mark poulson]

2 minutes ago, CNC Molds N Stuff said:

It occurs to me for the OPs purpose there may be a better solution.  Instead of annealing the hook eye to make it dead soft try heating it a little less to make it "less hard", but not dead soft.  

 

 

Bob, if I want to temper in my toaster over, what temp. and for how long do you suggest?

[CNC Molds N Stuff]

42 minutes ago, mark poulson said:

Bob, if I want to temper in my toaster over, what temp. and for how long do you suggest?

My idea was to go back a step.  Instead of annealing your hook eye and making it dead soft.  Maybe try to temper it so that is just a little less hard.  It is a distinction.  It will be harder to unbend and to bend, but slightly more bendable (maybe) and still harder than dead soft.  

If you put the entire hook in the oven you will change the temper of the entire hook.  ie  Make the whole hook less hard.  I was thinking maybe heat just the eye with a near, but not direct point heat source like a small torch until its a yellow straw color.  You obviously need to clean the hook eye so you can see the temper colors.  Hold the rest of the hook between two metal plates to act as a heat sink to prevent it from tempering to a lower hardness also.  Aluminum would probably work fine to keep it from heating up.  If its not enough try to a dark straw brown color.  If that's still not enough you could try brown to blue, but hooks are such a small mass of steel you would probably soften more than just the eye and that would be a hard temper to hit.  (no pun intended)  I may be over thinking it.  If annealing isn't causing issues with the hook shank getting to soft, maybe the plates to heat sink the shank are over kill.  

Yeah, I know I lectured Curt about using colors and it just being a rule of thumb, but to be fair its a decent rule of thumb. 

Remember, "Tempering is the process of making it "less hard" until it hits your hardness target."  

Annealing, which is what I think you were doing makes it dead soft.  (as dead soft as that alloy is capable of which can still be pretty hard)

I've never heat treated a hook before.  I'm kinda just guessing.  Like I said before I think I would try work hardening your soft eye hooks first.  Maybe as simple as clamping them hard in the flat direction between smooth vise jaws on a big vise.  I'd use my arbor press or maybe even my hydraulic press because I have them.  

When I temper in the oven I am working with an order of magnitude more mass, and its okay to temper the whole thing.  Custom ground drill or special shape cutter made from drill rod (W1), punch press die made from O1, hammer forged knife made from 5160 or 1080, specialty hammer made from 4140.  I quench and then temper in the oven to make it slightly less hard.  I always seem to spend 30 minutes looking up the material and checking online to see if anybody else has done the same thing first before I start, because I don't do it every day.

I have a dumb question and I don't really need the answer.  If you unbend your annealed hook eye, bend it closed, and then for some reason need to open it up again, is there a noticeable difference in how easily it unbends and recloses the second time?  If there is that is likely work hardening.  

 
 

[curt k]

17 hours ago, CNC Molds N Stuff said:

I said I wasn't an expert, but I'm not an ignoramus either.  LOL.  Yep.  Sort of, except that its based on temperature.  Color is a "rule of thumb," not a rule.  
 

While I can appreciate a " lecture " as you put it , my reply was directed at the original question and not to question anyone's expertise .

choice of colour is not a rule but it is a rule of thumb when you know what hardness you want to stay at with a particular material . Why , because it is an indication of the temperature of that material at that specific time in the cooling phase . A quick example is : I used to make a lot of tools with t1 , straw was the colour of choice , quench before that and the tools were brittle and would snap , quench after and they would mushroom . A colour on either side of that didn't change things overly significant but there was a difference

In order to keep a consistency then it's important to find what colour works and always quench closest to that colour , otherwise some hooks will be too brittle while others will be too soft .

 

If a torch has been used on the hooks then a certain amount of carbon has been burnt off Using a torch to heat them up again is going to burn off more carbon , so I doubt there is going to be any consistency in trying to harden them if they harden much at all . The wire forms as previously mentioned seems to be the easiest and best solution

Edited September 17 by curt k

[mark poulson]

Thanks everybody.

I think I'll try reheating with my heat gun to see if I can get to the straw color.  Funny, that's the color we quenched to in metal shop, back in the 60's.

[CNC Molds N Stuff]

I guess I am absolutely terrible about explaining things.  Tempering DOES NOT MAKE STEEL HARDER.  

Tempering "can" make it "tougher" by making it less hard.  Less likely to shatter.  There is no world where tempering makes any ordinary carbon steel harder.  

My points were:

1.  DO NOT MAKE IT SOFT IN THE FIRST PLACE.  Try tempering the eye from as purchased to make it less hard, but NOT dead soft.  

2.  If you already turned it to mush try work hardening FIRST before any sort of heat treating.  Its not hard... pun intended this time.  

The yellow straw, brown, blue, purple colors are associated with oxidation temperature for TEMPERING.  

Typically QUENCHING which does make it harder is associated with a dull cherry red color, but it can vary depending on the alloy and its best quench temperature. 

P.S. I had to go look up T1.  Its interesting that its considered an HSS I tend towards M35 or M42 for most of my HSS applications.  High speed steel is some funny stuff.  I won't say I know much about HSS other than I use it from time to time when its not worth chasing down an insert for special job.  I have a drawer full of specialty hand ground* lathe bits that have only been used for one or two jobs.  

* I use a variety of machines for grinding tools, which might make calling them hand ground questionable depending on who you ask.  I do not however have an NC tool grinder.  I still have to turn the handles.  

Edited September 18 by CNC Molds N Stuff

[curt k]

1 hour ago, CNC Molds N Stuff said:

P.S. I had to go look up T1. 

T1 is a highly common steel to use for a variety of tooling applications . If you look into your machinery handbook you will find a lot of information on the variety of tool steels , their general purposes along with their physical properties and compounds

[curt k]

8 hours ago, mark poulson said:

Thanks everybody.

I think I'll try reheating with my heat gun to see if I can get to the straw color.  Funny, that's the color we quenched to in metal shop, back in the 60's.

hope it works out .

I got curious about the hook dealy and there are a few manufacturing  videos on youtube that were interesting . The hooks go from heat to quench fairly quickly . Crude automation but it works and the timing isn't going to waiver much